Broken Forum vanished

I know I’m late to the party on this one, but I do want to pop in to add to the “I’ll be in my bunk” comments. It’s kind of a great example of what @ArmandoPenblade wrote. Someone brought it up as an example of how we enable small bits of sexism here, someone else defended it by pointing out how it’s mostly been used in reference to an attractive game reveal, then everyone else just agreed and virtually chuckled and nodded. And that’s the exact behavior that turns women off and puts us in the “old boys club” category. We’re not raging misogynists, we’re just not especially thoughtful of how our interactions might be perceived by women.

As much as we’d like “I’ll be in my bunk” to be a funny gender-neutral expression, it’s not. The image of a dude (and it’s a dude, let’s be honest) jerking off because they’re excited by a bit of nerd media is offensive to most women. Even if they get the Browncoat reference, the quote holds an inherent truth that isn’t particularly funny or welcoming. The phrase is evocative of how a man sexually objectifies people and things to conquer or acquire them. It’s a masculine attack. You may not mean it that way, but that’s what it emotionally means to women.

Full disclosure, I’ve used the joke on Qt3 too. I’m trying to be more aware of what I do, but I slip up all the time because I’m an old guy and our community has that flavor.

That was a hell of a post, @Telefrog. I’ll be in my… Wait dammit

As the person who defended it, I entirely agree with this. It’s a gendered joke, and, in truth, a kind of gross one if you actually think about it.

Yes, that sums up my thinking pretty clearly. And again, I’m not pointing fingers, I’m just as guilty as anybody else. I feel like there are a million little ways we could be more aware of stuff, improve our communications between each other, that wouldn’t take anything away from the good things Qt3 is and might improve some of the things that could use improving.

@Andy_Bates and @DarthMasta, please hear this above all else: I’m not taking a side in this, I’m not interested in the particulars of the event, and I’m sorry to single you two out. I’m not passing any judgement on what happened at BF. It’s not because of what either of you are saying, or this incident, it’s just that you’re a perfect example of what I’m about to say.

This kind of thing is why I think we should make an effort to let this thread die (says the guy adding another post, lol):

To repeat, I don’t know what went on when Andy got banned. I didn’t go looking up the thread, because I don’t care. But I do care that Andy came here and vented about it, because it’s a one-sided account, and wherever the truth of it lies, I’ve quoted Darth to show that this isn’t some entirely objective event that could have only one interpretation.

So Andy comes here and paints a picture that makes Lum seem at least a little bit out of line, and now what? Lum isn’t here to defend himself even if he wanted to, so it’s just useless complaining. This isn’t the place for that.

It doesn’t matter if Andy’s account is accurate, while Darth and Lum share some misinterpretation, or the other way around. The point is it’s just stirring up shit over here; it’s not productive.

All that said, I recognize this isn’t a huge deal. It’s not truly ruining lives here or escalating to anything dangerous for either forum. But it’s gross, and uncharitable, and it’s the perfect answer to the question @Nesrie posed of “Why do I think we should stop talking about the Broken Forum in the Broken Forum thread?”

We’re adults, we can disagree about this, and so that’s fine if we disagree. That’s why I’m not calling for moderation, I haven’t PM’d anyone to ask that this thread be closed. I said I wasn’t going to try to bring this up repeatedly, so I apologize for dropping one more post in so soon on the subject, but it was just the perfect example of a minor thing, but a thing I wish we weren’t doing here.

I quit this place and never started up at the other place because I got sick of the pile-ons. It sucks, but people on both forums are really good at piling on, especially if you have an outlier opinion.

That said, I think it’s better here since the schism, which I missed mostly because at the time I wasn’t active and because a lot of people that left were the type to really pile on.

I guess what I’m saying is people should just take a break and leave when it’s clear no one wants you to say what you’re saying.

So was it gross when it was in that out-dated show, Firefly? Would the show have been better without it? Was Firefly unwelcoming?

I’m all on board on not asking for picks of random “hot” women that posters ran into (which is creepy) or saying the bunk thing in response to a picture of a woman or some such. But saying “I’ll be in my bunk” with reference to news about a cool game or a movie, I see absolutely no problem with. Frankly, I would be disappointed if someone got chastised for doing that on this board. What’s the objection? Women don’t get excited about things, don’t masturbate, or don’t appreciate Firefly? Any of those things would be news to me.

I mean, in the context of the show, the quote isn’t exactly a positive. It’s said by Jayne, a rude, disrespectful meathead, while he’s…being a rude, disrespectful meathead. The line is funny insofar as we see him bristling up uncomfortably against other people and showing his true nature, and it’s certainly memorable… But it’s not exactly a positive moment either.

It’s not to the level of, say, quoting the To the Moon! line at a woman in terms of emulating bad behavior, and again, the intent may even be to lampshade hang the crudeness… But it’s still crude and a little gross. Even if it is beloved. See also Ren & Stimpy! Aww, I made myself sad again.

Sure it is, but it’s also funny and geeky. So women can’t be crude and a little gross? It’s solely the domain of manly men? Do you think that none of the fairer sex found that scene in Firefly funny?

If the saying was something like “I’m going to go stroke my rod” or something, I get it. But come on, only guys masturbate is the basis for the objection? Really?

I responded only to the first chunk of what you wrote. I have more complex thoughts on the rest but am on my phone and this fucking swipe keyboard shit is annoying, heh.

eyes

Sure they do. As @ArmandoPenblade pointed out, Jayne is a jerk. He’s totally the guy to say crude things. Note that even in the context of the show, none of the other characters respond in kind. Jayne doesn’t get validation for his sexism. At best, his comment elicits a frown and an eyeroll. The comedy is because of course Jayne says a dumb thing.

In real life women masturbate and get excited about stuff. What they don’t normally do is combine that in a turn of phrase that sexually objectifies a person or item in a way that claims their agency. That’s a traditionally guy thing to do.

Imagine the same statement in plain words. “That excites me so much, I am compelled to masturbate immediately.” That’s a masculine sentiment.

Alright, back on my PC now.

So look, no one is saying that girls don’t like Firefly or that girls don’t masturbate or that girls don’t engage in potty humor. Those things are true for some girls, certainly, but that’s not what makes the “I’ll be in my bunk” quote at least moderately questionable.

Jayne’s a gross, rude, crude dude. He’s all swagger and snark and sexism bottled up in a guy who happens to be a coincidental hero a few times over a handful of episodes of a show, but I don’t think of him as a shining paragon of humanity, and the show doesn’t really paint him as one, either.

The line feels “right” from him because it’s a kinda gross thing to say, especially in context. Dudes talk about jacking off like that a lot because it’s gross and funny to some because of that, sure, but it’s also part and parcel of that kinda grody, sex-infused machismo culture that generally isn’t meant to be welcoming to women. Like yeah, there’s the female mechanic who tells dick jokes with the best of them down at the shop, and all the guys call her “one of the guys,” and that alone already is starting to make my point for me.

Guys foist their sexuality and masculinity and literal and metaphorical dicks out into the world as a power play, sometimes. Not every guy who tells a crude joke is doing that, and few of the ones that really are are aware of it like such. But in the end, they’re out there, swinging their dicks around, metaphorically or otherwise, cuz they’re in power, they’re in charge, and goddammit, the world’s gonna hear about what a horndog they are and how women are tools toward their sexual satisfaction.

Again, not exclusively. but it’s a pervasive aura around the whole thing. It’s tied up in all this context and these behaviors and centuries of dick jokes and sexual inequality and rape culture and people just being jackasses for fun.

And all of that stuff, the sum total of it, usually winds up not being terribly friendly to women, and on some level, at least here in the US, they learn soon enough that that whole composite Thing out there isn’t meant for them, it’s meant to rub their faces in it and disempower them and shame them and make them feel uncomfortable and remind them they’re objects to be used.

Again, between good friends who’ve known each other for ages? Sometimes that shit is just how the clique pidgin develops. Dick jokes are shorthand for the friendship you share, or whatever. There’s probably a dick joke somewhere in that sentence already! You’ve established a comfort level, a rapport, a sense of what is okay and what is not okay, and everyone is on that same wavelength together.

But being a woman walking down the street and hearing a guy shout “Yeah I’m gonna be thinkin of you ALL NIGHT baby!” three times a week every week from the time she was 12 onward? That shit starts to wear on you. The psychic weight I describe above. The constant gnawing fear that dudes might be one of the bad ones, one of the gross ones, one of the crude ones who isn’t just joking but is actually staking a claim and out to do something bad or scary or harmful to you.

And then you walk into an anonymous forum of mostly old white nerdy dudes and the dick jokes and tits or gtfo memes and questions about your interest in REAL games are there, mounting, present, just like everywhere else, and you ask yourself: is this place really okay for me? Do these people really respect me? Do they know what I’ve been through? Are they all on the level? Was that ironic? Or did he mean it just a little bit?

Using memespeak and cultural touchstones to toss out the grosser, unwelcoming sentimentsa nd feelings and overtones and undertones doesn’t really make it any different. It’s still a part of this overall aura, this feel, this mood. One that reminds you of all the other places that you weren’t safe, that the people weren’t on the level, the places where you needed to keep your guard up just in case.

And that’s why I don’t think Qt3 is as welcoming to women as BF. “I’ll be in my bunk” is a symptom, not a cause.

Just want to point this out that this is kind of exactly the sort of attitude that will drive women away. I don’t have the attention span nor headache-proof constitution to be a thread cop though.

I mean, Rick, do you think women want to go to a place that says they like getting their asses kissed?

However, i’m just pointing this out as an example of what we could do better. Please let’s not turn this into a fight over this one line.

Andy, one of the more painful things is realizing a bunch of people you thought wanted you around actually don’t. I have no idea what went on nor do i care - but the forum didn’t actually want you there, and you gave them enough of a reason to be rid of you. So it kind of doesn’t matter if is was fair on some objective scale or whatever.

Do you want to fight for the right to force people who don’t like you to listen to you? That’s like what angry greybeards do on women’s social media, when they chime in unwantedly about sex this or Trump that. No one cares (in that social context) wth they have to say or think. Best just move on and find a community that more closely aligns with your values and interests and not die on that hill.

Because they’re not going to name that hill for you, however heroic you imagine your cause to be.

Hmm.

Hmm.

Wumpus, I reject your authoritah!

…however i would like to subscribe to your newsletter…

… don’t ban me, bro!

Thanks @ArmandoPenblade and @Telefrog. That sums up why I think the line is questionable around here, even if it was funny uttered by Jayne in the show.

I think we all should take this kind of reasoning into account. It makes Qt3 into a more welcoming place.

Nope. And imo it’s a fool’s errand to try. Some places try, and they fail, and everyone is miserable about it. They’ll always fail, because some women are put off by the way men communicate with each other by default, and because some men are put off by the way women communicate with each other by default. Getting 100% from both sides is impossible.

But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try at all. Just because you can’t hit 100% doesn’t mean you can’t make huge strides with just a little more effort, and that it’s not worth doing. Just don’t blow it all up if you don’t hit 100% - and that’s not going to be a “worry” we have here.

It’s too long and annoying to type out, and frankly i doubt anyones care enough to read it all. However i think basically there is a generation gap when it comes to women.

The hypersimplified version to the point i risk being being both inaccurate and making everyone mad and so why am i even trying, is that, basically in the 80s and 90s, men learned it was sexist to treat women different than men, and now, men are being told it’s sexist to treat women the same as men.

I could go into the why, but honestly… let’s not. As a typical near-aspie guy, lets just accept that what women want today is for women’s personalities, ways of communication and values to be considered as equally valid as men’s, and not just be treated as “one of the guys”.

The key issue for me is this: should someone who posts the “bunk” comment about a game or a movie (i.e., not about a particular woman or man) be criticized (gently or otherwise) on this board?

Perhaps in the giant milieu of what it is posted by that given poster or the meta of what other posts have pushed things too far that week you deem that some comments are a bridge too far. For me, that’s not a basis to go policing things on this board.

As I noted above, the “bunk” line is, as Armando correctly put it, a little gross and crude. But it’s more than that too—it’s a little funny and nerdy. Again, I don’t see how you conclude that gross and crude are solely the domain of men.

If you don’t think women can be crude, you’ve never been around your wife or girlfriend when she’s chatted it up with her girls.

So no, I disagree that talking about masturbation is a masculine sentiment. Do men think about sex more than women? Sure. But women aren’t asexual. By your logic, anything sexual that isn’t vagina specific is a masculine sentiment.

Why are we talking about “policing” what people say? I don’t recall anyone suggesting that as a solution, and even if someone did I don’t think any of the people here with the power to do so have any interest at all in doing it. Mainly what I think is the most productive way to look at this stuff is to take a look at what you’re posting, think about what you’re writing. Maybe there’s a better way to communicate. Yes, that’s squishy as hell, but each person is responsible for only their words and actions. If you want to keep talking about you’re bunk, nobody is going to stop you.