Have you tried smoking weed? Might want to give that a shot.
I’m not sure how I would know this. It’s essentially asking me to predict the future, and solve the question that I have been unable to solve. I’m really not sure.
Will my morale erode less slowly if I take a different job, flame out, and then become homeless? Will my morale improve over time if I take the time not working to try to recuperate instead of trying to metaphorically run on a broken leg by picking a random job I cannot generate interest in, and which makes me feel anxious? While I’m doing the inverted thing for purposes of illustration, I’m being serious - I don’t think there is a simple answer. But I do think that rolling the dice sounds great as a dramatic, almost literary device, until you have to pay the butcher’s bill for the dice coming up snake eyes.
I left my job sleeping a couple of hours a night, and zoning out in the middle of the day, staring into space while trying to force myself to read the documents. Literally shivering at my desk with anxiety. Why would it be any different with any of those jobs? I have no idea.
It would be one thing if trying were harmless. If it were, “Well, that didn’t work out, I guess I’m just back to where I was.” But it’s not harmless. I would be in a far worse situation if I tried something new and it did not work out.
To me, it’s somewhat similar to the “follow your passion and the money will come” people who have led to the current glut of people with English degrees trying to make ends meet working at Starbucks at age 35. Sometimes the things we want to work are not the best approach. I don’t know.
And it would be different if there was something that I had some interest or passion for, but that I was just worried about it not working out. Instead, I feel nothing. No motivation. No passion or interest. No inkling that, “That might be fulfilling/meaningful if I did that.” There isn’t that thing that I’d secretly like to try, but just don’t think it would work. There’s just nothing.
I also do not like considering things like, “How long can I endure my current emotional state,” as that leads down roads that are not good.
I honestly have thought about it, but for the time being, have decided the risks outweigh the likely benefits. I’ve also thought about psilocybin and similar things, but have come to the same conclusion at least for the time being.
Does your disability let you work volunteer positions? Can you “try” other types of job on that basis, to see if the new job is, in and of itself, an aid for your depression? I personally had one bout of depression a couple decades ago and can recall how it’s really hard to pull out of it without making some sort of changes. While the disability payments address your financial needs, not working in some capacity (e.g., volunteer) may be a significant detriment to your recovery.
Yeah, that’s what I was going to suggest. Get a volunteer gig.
I was reading in the Seattle paper today about an organization that goes around rescuing ‘wild’ animals (squirrels, ducks, pigeons, even a brown bear cub) and none of the people were trained vets but just people using their wits and common sense to deal with mundane emergencies, like binding broken wings or caring for abandoned litters, that sort of thing. I was struck by the fact that it was just people who liked animals and it seemed exciting. I mean, I guess you could also hang out at a soup kitchen or a shelter.
For this kind of thing, you probably don’t want to be thinking that the volunteer work is practice run for any sort of professional career. Consider approaching it as just a way to get out of your own head for a few hours each day or whatever the commitment is. If you end up at a soup kitchen or something where the people you meet are all multiple levels of social problems, you will see what I mean. You really can’t do anything to solve the bigger issues that confront their lives, so you end up just do the job in front of you. Usually it’s just like a clean up task or something. I have never really done anything all that interesting.
You might feel grateful. Gratitude is the best thing for depression or anxiety if you’re in your 50s. If you’re in your 20/30s, try sex! hahah, serious! But sex comes with its own set of problems, so maybe just stick with the soup kitchen on the first run.
EDIT: Here’s that article from Seattle paper I mentioned above:
Whether the disability lets me or not is frankly another one of those grey areas. The best way I can describe it is this: it is an insurance carrier. The coverage is for being unable to do my specific job, not any job (so, for example, they are not legally supposed to be able to say, “You could work at McDonald’s,” and drop me because of that).
But they’re an insurance carrier. Quite frankly, they are interested in not paying me. Per my own attorney, they routinely look for any excuse to bump someone off a policy. And there is a long history of such things with insurance carriers, as I’m sure everyone knows. The common way of explaining it is, they don’t care if you have 29 bad days a month - they’re looking to catch you doing something on your 1 good day.
Or for another example, there are plenty of cases where, for example, people with pain issues (which I do not have) or mental health issues (which I do, like depression and anxiety) are told by their doctors that they need to do their best to get out and socialize, try to do something active, etc. They then do something like try to garden in their back yard for 20-30 minutes a day, the insurance company films it, and “Hey, you can do this gardening work, your pain isn’t real/you must be able to return to work.”
I don’t need to hear the other side of it. I understand that there are fraudsters out there. People who are really just looking to make easy money. But for me, the reality of it is that while the insurance company claims that is their primary worry, the reality is they are a for profit entity. Their profits (and employee bonuses, etc.) go up the more their payouts go down. They are incentivized to kick you off, even if you really are still disabled.
So why that really long winded explanation on a simple question regarding volunteering? Because that is the answer, it is not so simple. I theoretically should be able to do volunteer work. But it undeniably increases the risk.
I am trying to juggle that versus exactly what you said, the notion that doing something may help my recovery. I have looked around for volunteer opportunities, but have not really found anything yet.
I agree with this. It’s surprising though - I’ve been looking, and it is harder to find a volunteer thing that I have any interest in than I thought it would.
Part of it, admittedly, is me being picky. I can’t do animal stuff because I have an assortment of nasty allergies to the animals you would typically come in contact with. Though perhaps it is selfish, I have decided that I really do not want to do hospice/palliative care type things - I frankly do not think it would be good for my own issues to be steeped in that right now. I have thought about some type of volunteer work with children, but frankly I have never really clicked with kids (other than my own) and find it very awkward and not very fulfilling (I’m the sort of person who imagines working with kids will be like Dead Poet’s Society, and then gets frustrated when it turns out to be fart jokes, insolence, and little assholes running around). I do not think I would get much out of a soup kitchen thing, but I am considering it, almost for lack of other options.
I’m still looking. It’s funny - everyone says generalities like, “There are so many non-profits that need your help,” then when you look around, there are actually surprisingly few things that do not fall into the above categories. I’ve looked around for historical society type things (work in museums, etc.) - nothing that I can find that is remotely near. I went to two county libraries and literally asked, “Do you have any volunteer opportunities - I’m not really time limited, I could do things during the day too.” Both looked at me like I was from Mars.
I’m not trying to be Debby Downer on this. I do think there is something out there - I just have not found it. (I’m also aware of not doing the depression thing where you look for something perfect and never end up doing anything - I’m not going to do that, but I’m also not going to just do some completely unsuited thing that ends up making me resentful and feeling worse.)
Of course, just being 100% honest, I do not really want to do any of this. I do it because I feel like I’m supposed to. It’s the same reason I do any exercise. I do it because it’s supposed to theoretically help. I just wish I could switch over at some point to actually feeling good about it, instead of trying to feel good.
I used to try the gratitude angle, but now I try not to think about it anymore. Perhaps the best way I’ve seen it described is this. That you feel miserable. That the notion of gratitude for what you have is supposed to be a theoretical boon/salve for depression. But it isn’t (and I’ve seen other’s with depression say the exact same thing). The fact that others have it worse (and that you have good things) does not actually change the feeling in your heart. But what thinking about it does do is make you feel guilty, because you feel miserable and you shouldn’t, because you have all these nice things, and there are other people who are homeless and have “real problems”, and what’s really wrong with you, you whiny, ungrateful puke, what do you have to feel miserable about, there’s homeless people out there, I mean there’s homeless people out there with painful cancer, and you need to stop being a whiny little bitch because you have so much to be grateful for.
So yeah, I try not to think about gratitude anymore.
You know, this might sound trite, but with the way your feeling, i would just start small.
Just go to a park and take a walk; take your wife and spend the afternoon outdoors. Don’t worry about anything else. And do this regularly, make a habit of it. If you live in the Pacific NW there are plenty of nice places to hang out and enjoy the sunshine…er… when it’s shining, anyway. I think everyone’s advice is coming from the right place, but you have to go to step one, and i don’t think you’re at step one.
I can say from my experience that i had crippling depression in college - to such an extent it’s mere luck i’m still alive - and really the only thing that saved me was the outdoors and exercise. I never found medication nor psychiatry useful, though for the right person i’m sure their beneficial. Just breaking the cycle of isolation, just getting outside and seeing new things, clearing your head of all the things you can’t let go, is such a relief and a huge step toward thinking clearly.
I’ll respond more later, but I did see this and I want to make it perfectly clear - I know that everyone’s advice is coming from the right place. If I sound like I’m being dismissive, angry, or lashing out, that is definitely not out of lack of gratitude. Some things just might not work for me because people do not know my specific circumstances. Some things might work, but there are other hurdles to overcome first. Some things I have actually tried to put in place, etc.
But please all understand that though I may sometimes respond with some reason why I can’t do X, or think I shouldn’t do Y, in no event am I actually upset or trying to diminish or disparage anything anyone here has said. I really do, truly, appreciate all of the kind thoughts and suggestions.
I just broke up with my girlfriend, in part because I kept getting the feeling that when I reached out to try to be kind, she actually lashed out at me in return. There are few things that feel worse than trying to connect with or help someone, and feel like they are actually biting at you in return. So please understand, I’m not trying to do that here. :)
First, none of that is gratitude. I’m saying if you can muster some gratitude, it might help with the depression. You can go about doing that anyway you like, but it’s probably not going to happen if you’re just, like, sitting in your kitchen thinking about gratitude. Your mind will just go to some fucked up depressed place, or you will parse all the little failures from past experience. Maybe start small. Hold the door for an old lady or buy a kid a slice of pizza. Maybe just smile at someone.
I do not think kids or hospice/palliative is the right place to volunteer. I do think it might be helpful to do outreach with some fucked up population like drug addicts, homeless people, or even better, prisoners doing reentry. Not so that you can see people with “real problems” but because it sort of erases (for me at least) any sense I might have for being able to solve their problems (like your expectations about working with kids) and then with my ego out of the way, it’s just about doing the thing right in front of me that needs to get done. Like I said, usually it’s a cleaning task.
Don’t try to force the gratitude. It either comes or it doesn’t. But do give it a chance. Maybe make an agreement with yourself to show up, say, 6x and then decide if it is helping you with your depression. If nothing else, you will at least feel good about whatever it is you cleaned up. :)
Also, don’t listen to people with depression. They’re depressed, so their opinion about what to do with depression is biased and probably not that useful to you.
I can relate! I think most people can. We do it because we have to, because there aren’t any other obvious options.
No no, i typed that fast and it maybe had the wrong tenor.
All i was trying to say was that i think we’ve been giving some very high level, go-become-a-cetacean-researcher advice, and that i think it’s clear from the last couple of posts that’s not really where you’re at right now. Not that you showed a lack of gratitude or anything - not at all.
It’s like someone saying “I feel depressed…” and the advice given in response is “go solve world hunger!”. I’d just work on “getting the ball rolling” first and worrying about the specifics much much later.
And tough luck on your girlfriend as well. Definitely time for a spring cleaning it seems.
Pardon the tangent, but on several occasions I have entertained a serious fantasy of abandoning my technical position, whatever it may have been at the time, and go back to school to study marine biology or oceanography. I even live near a university with a very strong program, and went so far as to meet with some people there to talk about it.
I’ve not yet followed through with it, and while that’s partly due to the expense and upheaval that would put my family through, it’s alsonpartly because of some dismay I’ve felt upon learning that the fantasy of bailing out on the tech sector and studying whales is so common as to be a cliche, apparently. I can’t do anything original.
go-become-a-cetacean-programmer
Couldn’t be any worse an idea than teaching sharks to be engineers!
Sorry, I’ll stop derailing the thread now.
Slyfrog, my suggestion is you go travel. And not to Europe or Canada, somewhere really foreign and not rich, like Nepal, Egypt, almost any slightly depressed South American country. New experiences, new outlook, new culture, and it will make you appreciative for what you have here. The biggest thing you will see is contentment and smiles on people who have almost nothing materially, but who thrive on their relationships.
It kinda sounds to me like you are a bit socially isolated. Way better to travel when you are in that situation, it’s the perfect opportunity.
I guess I’m not sure what gratitude is then. The things you describe just sound like giving and being helpful. Which are fine, and I do those things where I can. But I’ve volunteered at food shelters and the like in the past, and never found any particular sense of gratitude, as in being thankful for something (other than, again, feeling guilty because “what do I have to complain about”). They just kind of felt like activities. Packing boxes of food and working in a kitchen didn’t really feel different than any other activity for me.
That’s why I think I need to find the right activity or something. Rote tasks don’t really seem to do much. I guess there are different results from depression - I’ve never been one of the types who doesn’t clean his house or things like that, so when I’ve tried the advice like “just accomplish things, start the day making your bed” I’m like “I already do that, and it doesn’t make me feel any better - it’s just a task to be done.”
I am socially isolated (to a degree - therapist actually says that I have a better support network than most that he sees with my issues). I do not think that type of travel would be good for me right now. I actually tend to just feel more isolated in such situations. I am going to try to be better about reaching out here at home, join some more groups (I need to figure out for what). I also want to try to get away for some weekends or a week probably just in the U.S. though. (Because I’m a scared local traveller. :)
I thought I understood your intent, but I just more wanted to be clear on my end that I was not trying to be harsh regarding any advice given.
I have been trying to do little things - I’ve gone for 50 minute walks the past two days, for example. I’ve done similar stretches in the past where I’ve walked regularly. I’ve tried mindfulness and meditation. I’ve had a few relatively lengthy (e.g. nine-months plus) where I’ve gone to the gym religiously and lifted weights every other day.
One issue I have is that I live in a frozen wasteland. I really don’t like the cold. 6 months or so of the year here frankly suck. I know the right answer to that is “get outside anyway,” but again, being cold and miserable has never helped my depression. I hope that as spring comes, it will feel better to get out.
I have considered moving somewhere with a better climate, but there are three issues with that. First, inertia/fatigue makes it seem impossible. Second, I have my kids, and I’m not leaving them until they are out and established. Third, and just as important (as you can tend to lose sight of this when depressed), I don’t want to underestimate what my support network here does for me emotionally. It is hard enough to make friends in your 40s/50s. When you are depressed/anxious, it is even harder. Starting all over, leaving the few friends I have behind, may do more harm than good.
Regarding my girlfriend, it is a really difficult situation. It’s not like one of those things where I hate her. We both have our issues (I’ve made some of mine quite obvious). I’m sure it is different from her perspective. She still wants to stay together, or at least talk/be friends with some very loose discussion of “more.” But that was one of the big disconnects in the relationship - I just felt like she was not there, her protestations to the contrary. One of those “words are different than actions” thing. So at the end of the day, I do not know whether I’m making the right decision, but I feel like I need to do something different.
It is very difficult to feel isolated, depressed, and anxious, and voluntarily leave someone, however. You feel like you may be making a choice that will end up with you being alone forever. At the same time, you don’t want to stay in a relationship just to avoid being alone. It’s a hard thing to figure out.
Those things are just as you describe them, giving and being helpful, but that’s not gratitude. The idea is that you do these sort of things to try to muster some positive feelings to help you feel better. But if it’s making you feel guilty or not working, then by all means ignore. Also, I’m calling the positive feelings gratitude, but that’s not to suggest your not already grateful enough, or that anything is wrong with you. I’m just trying to articulate what has worked for me with depression and anxiety. It’s a sucky feeling and I don’t wish it on anyone.
Have you heard of Allie Brosh?
She writes weirdly eloquent comics about her experience with depression. My wife pointed her out to me, reminding me that we’re all different when it comes to depression and what works for one person, might not work for another. That’s the big understanding the both of us came to working with family members with these sort of issues. It’s really tricky stuff, but Brosh has a knack for summing up these really great insights with only a few spare panels.
Here are some of blogs on depression:
And here is her book on Amazon. If you look at the link, Bill Gates (!) did a celebrity review of her book, which just tickles me that he would take the time to do that. It’s actually a pretty good review.
Here is an interesting article
Pretty much!
Also, pretty much! But the kids have their moments and are almost always preferable to the adults. They have fewer ulterior motives, and less baggage. They’re just there to have fun, and god help any of us when we begrudge the kids their simple, unassuming joy at being alive. As you might have noticed, this can get difficult as an adult, so there’s actually stuff to learn from the kids in this regard, and being around them is a reminder that, holy fuck, we’re alive!
That said, being around a bunch of kids eight hours a day would drive me nutty bonkers koo-koo. I kinda like to chill, and kids don’t really do chill.
I don’t think anyone actually thinks this about other people? I mean, damn, before I had kids I had no idea what kind of endless whee party time vacation I was on. After I had kids, I don’t judge other parents unless they are literally hitting their kids… and drawing blood. Now imagine someone who had a kid with a serious disability. Or lost a kid, god forbid.
Everyone is fighting hard battles internally, we just can’t see them. Now, it is true that some people go to war and fight those battles with considerably more resources than others, whether monetary or being born the right color in the right place at the right time to the right family, or whatever. But that doesn’t make them guaranteed victories, either – we have a remarkable ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, because you know what? We didn’t believe we could win. Maybe deep down inside, we didn’t want to win?
Are you sure? I find travelling by myself kinda brutal.
I second this. Go for long walks, regularly. Keep it simple. Except as you mentioned, you’ve tried this, and the climate is problematic…
So maybe the approach here is to get back on that horse and start swiping left? Get out and date other people?
Travelling by yourself is only lonely if you are no good at meeting people. I’ve met people on all my travels, people that travel alone always seem to meet others who are travelling alone. It’s also way more fun to get into local stuff with locals as you have no one to look out for and can wing it. YMMV but I loved travelling alone.
I actually have her book - you have just given me a great reminder to go read it again. I agree that she does a very good job at illustrating some of the aspects of depression that are non-obvious. Particularly that it is not just about sadness, but also often just a grey ennui.
I saw that article. It’s interesting, because it actually illustrates one of my main problems. I’ve done job exploration before (as I’ve mentioned), life coaching type things, read books on it, etc.
They all have a presumption that you have something that you are interested in or passionate about. Like literally, one career adviser I spoke with literally just seemed to say, “What are your interests and passions,” over and over again. It’s like when I could not tell him any, he really had nothing else to say. His entire shtick was pretty much predicated on that, and he had nowhere to go when I could not give him those building blocks.
Well, that’s part of the problem - that is kind of what my internal voice says. I try to quell it, but it is hard to not see it as a rational thing. You know, you live in a nice house, you have food and clothing, your kids are healthy, what do you have to complain about? Only thinking that does not stop the pain, it just adds guilt, as I said before.
Yeah, this is part of it for me, particularly for me, to a foreign land. I fear I would have the opposite reaction - I would feel so incredibly alone. And in response to Guap’s later post, I am terrible at meeting people. I have tried bookclubs, things like that. It’s not that I’m antisocial, it’s that I never feel like I really belong, even when I “stick with” a group.
I’ve been thinking about this. I am not sure (and I’m trying to be kind to myself and tell myself I do not need a definitive answer beyond “how do I feel today”), but right now, it seems logical that I should really just take some time off and work on myself. Try to find those interests if I can, even if it is just going for a walk outside or similar things (once it isn’t freaking 34 degrees).
I just need to not let that be an excuse to slip into complete isolation.