I think all the first article shows is that whenever you take a political position on a thorny issue, you’re going to find yourself occasionally associating with people or ideas you didn’t mean to. If you defend the rights of the Palestinians vs. Israel, you’re going to get some unsavory allies. Some will of course be advocates of terrorism, and others will inevitably be anti-Semites. If you get invited to a conference on the subject, you’ll end up in the same room as those people, or on the same stage. You can of course avoid all that by taking the opposite position, but for some people the position is a matter of principle.
We could fix antisemitism by rolling into Palestine with the heavies and imposing a settlement on Israel and Palestine… and probably should.
Because that’s what it’s going to take to cut the Gordian knot. As long as the Palestinian question gets swept under the rug by supporters of Israel, anti-antisemitism is going to have fuel to fire it.
I even saw “Stop the Palestinian Genocide” posters in Santa Fe, NM this Thanksgiving on fences.
I don’t think that most anti-Semites care that much about Palestine. The most anti-Semitic people I’ve been exposed to were East Europeans who hated the Palestinians nearly as much as they did Jewish people.
I think a lot of modern anti-Semitism exists for basically the same reason that it did in medieval times; that it is useful to focus people’s anger on some out-group rather than on its real sources. E.g it’s not your fault or your representative’s fault that you are poor and have a shitty life and a shitty society, rather it’s because of this greedy, manipulative, nebulous conspiracy that is making everything go badly for you. And then the anger gets focused on the outgroup rather than on any real solution. It’s a pretty basic social need and tactic; I feel like even if Jewish people did not exist much of the world would have to invent them.
Uh, so let’s not go invading Israel. Oh right and they also have a couple dozen nukes so it would be a doubly bad idea.
Wasn’t this a sub-plot of a Tom Clancy novel?
Wouldn’t our troops just become even bigger targets?
Do you really think Israel’s actions will in any way either cause or reduce antisemitism? Antisemitism is based on irrationality. The mere fact that Israel exists is all the fuel that is needed.
There was antisemitism before Israel, too. Jews existing creates an easy scapegoat fo peoples’ problems.
I don’t either, but they do make common cause with those who do, which muddies the waters for those advocating for the Palestinians, through guilt by association.
Rolling in with the heavies worked so well in Iraq, of course we should try that approach again. Sigh.
The general sentiment is that the solution can’t be negotiated - it’s clear the parties are in places where negotiation requires political compromises that they’re politically unable to make. So you break the politics from the outside looking in, give them an out.
Good ole’ Clausewitz, you know. But i don’t mean war, but the threat of war. Just swoop down and say, look, i know you can’t solve this yourselves. So this is what you’re going to do. If you don’t, everybody dies! Essentially an imperial solution rather than a democratic one, a larger power imposing a settlement. Once you scare the hell out of everyone to the point where they really have to accept a solution, you then hammer something out with the UN and neighboring powers.
Arguably all western oriented Islamic terrorism has its roots in the unilateral support of Israel by the US. I mean, by this point, the roots of rot have spread far past the tree of original sin, but that’s the itch fundamentalism scratches. Either the West is humanitarian, or its not. Either it applies universal values for democracy, or it doesn’t. And if there is no political solution to the Israeli/Palestinian situation… then what? We just live with it? A sore of the modern world? Like gun violence in the US, gang violence in Central America from drug cartels, like Russia invading the Crimea? What can anyone or anything do? I guess the answer is nothing. We should have a round of talks to reconcile the irreconcilable.
When generations of politicians have rejected statecraft and diplomacy and eroded the international order and the moral authority they once had, I guess the answer really is “nothing”. Climate change? But it’s politically inexpedient! There are jobs on the line! So let’s do nothing. How many lives are ruined by the civil wars in Syria and Yemen? We can’t get involved… or even take a stand. Best to do nothing. The post Iraq II world is one where the West is paralyzed and terrified of acting. Not just military, but politically, economically, morally. At least we tried holding a few Camp David meetings back in the day.
The Atlantic just posted an article about this problem of inaction, even though this is limited to domestic US policy, i think it reflects in part a universal malaise. These political stalemates are failures of political systems. At some point, people are going to break those system to resolve the problems they refuse to confront if those political systems, sclerotic and full of inertia and inaction, cannot bend or change.
Wars are the final stage of political revolution. Let’s fix things before it gets to that point. And in places like Palestine the knock on consequences of this - antisemitism, Islamic terrorism, rejection of Westernization, spill over into decades and centuries of strife.
I agree with that. But there’s some ground between ending unilateral unqualified support and armed occupation of Palestine. The latter would surely result in even greater animosity towards the US.
I could be wrong - counterfactual and whatnot - but i think the Islamic world would cheer to see Israel humbled by the US at the same time as Palestine. And would cheer loudly if an honest, thoughtful settlement were reached/imposed that provided both sides a genuine, livable solution. Even if that settlement had to be imposed rather than agreed.
On day 2 or 3, Hamas tries to strike Israel from behind the wall of US tanks. Naturally, the US represses Hamas. End of being welcomed with flowers and cakes.
LOL, you think they care about the Palestinians? There is more to be gained with conflict than with peace, and that’s why there will be no peace.
This idea that radical Islam would be sated by some sort of comeuppance for Israel, or even by the US cutting Israel off completely, is silly. They will always find a reason to hate.
Settling the question by outside force was already tried in 1948.
It seems people now tend to forget that there would’ve been a Palestinian state but the Arab states didn’t agree with a 2 state solution. When they attacked the resurrected state of Israel they evacuated Palestinians from the war zone (“artillery shells can’t tell the difference between you and the Jews but the war will soon end and you can go home”).
At the end of the war, by some miracle Israel won and captured much of the territory which the UN has set aside for a Palestinian state and the Palestinians were refugees.
The Arab states could have set aside some territory next to Israel for a Palestinian state but instead any territory not captured by Israel they annexed themselves.
The Arab states are the reason why there is no Palestinian state. They decided it’d be better to keep the Palestinians as refugees.
Even now, when people put forward a two state solution it’s always Israel which is called on to surrender territory in spite of Israel being a tiny country and the surrounding nations being relatively vast in comparison.
It might seem that way to you, but I’m perfectly aware of the history. The way it seems to me is that the people who made the decisions — good and bad — in 1948 are all dead, and their grandchildren have been agreeing to a 2-state solution for decades, but Israel won’t actually let them have one, because it wants the West Bank. So I’m not inclined to say sorry but your grandpa was stupid.
They’re being asked to give up territory they occupy illegally. You know that , right?
They occupied the territory because doing so was a matter of national survival. You know that, right?
They made a deal to give it back in return for recognition and peace. You know that, right?
Is this the Europe thread or the Israel-Palestine thread? I’m confused…
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Eh, that’s probably my fault. Tangental but i think relevant to the rise of Antisemitism in Europe.
Pretty much. Bin Laden was angry the US had troops in Suadi Arabia, which were there at the request of the Saudis. Anything short of Israel packing up everything and leaving and no white person being in the entire region isn’t going to be enough. And even then I’m betting they’d find a new reason anyway since the “reason” is really an excuse for people to have power at the end of the day.
Fair, though anti-Semitism eventually leads back to Israel, so at least it’s a logical progression.