Congrats to New York

What? What in the world would lead you to believe this?

What I ought to have said is, “Those who disagree with that type of conservative rarely take the time to address the root causes of that kind of thinking” – namely, the frankly ridiculous concerns about government interest in dictating what is to be said from the pulpit, and of social dissolution.

The key thing with Frum is that he’s not avowedly anti-reality in his opinions, which is to say he is willing to apply the scientific method to his principles when push comes to shove. Sometimes that push takes a while, but there you go.

The Christian Science Monitor ran an excellent piece today about conservative skepticism of climate change that really emphasized the need for their opponents to acknowledge that “scientist” and “scientific method” have become dirty words for a huge portion of the nation.

These days, “scientist” has become codeword for “self-important, condescending intellectual” who uses the imprimatur of “impartial analysis” to push particular social agendas. As the article points out, many Americans feel utterly disenfranchised: they lack the education or information to contest climate science, and equate “peer review” with “pal review.” Like most people on most subjects, they are forced to try to locate “their own” scientists, and are at a loss to understand why their opponents feel comfortable dismissing academic climate skeptics out-of-hand. There is a wider tie-in here to the issue of transparency in government: at a time when policy decisions at every level can be observed in extreme detail, nearly all Americans lack sufficient understanding to make independent decisions. They have the technology to “peek” inside the factory, but still aren’t sure what’s going in their sausage. And why shouldn’t they have trouble finding the truth, when the self-proclaimed experts themselves disagree?

PHRASING

I honestly don’t see his article as being “reasonable” at all. It still took more than a decade of reality to convince him that offering equal rights to all people isn’t a bad thing. It still took him in-practice reality to prove his idea that it would destroy the tradition of marriage wrong.

I don’t think people like Frum can be so easily vindicated or excused for stupid, damaging, bigoted opinions. The fact of the matter is that there has never been a solid reason against gay marriage, especially not one rooted in religion, and if anything this seems like a guy desperate to gain the favor of liberals for unknown ulterior motives.

If he requires more than a decade of evidence to prove common sense true, then I have no problem waiting for him to give a decade of examples that show he’s truly learned from his mistakes.

Yeah, his conversion is a bit late – but crucially it is still better than the die hard bigots. And he has the good grace to do it publicly, rather than just let it slide by unnoticed while other conservatives stand in lockstep.

Treating him nicely isn’t about forgiveness/revenge, or whether it’s warranted, as those are merely about (I feel misguided) satisfaction. Really, who cares?

Rather, it’s about slipping a wedge between the rest who still believe the dogma, driving it as hard as we can, and finding more allies in doing so. In many ways, a conservative like Frum changing tack helps this cause more than anything wiser folk who understood from the beginning could do.

Yes, I can agree with that. It’s not about forgiveness or being nice so much as establishing a spectrum of opinion where compromise is possible. The current conservative fashion is framing everything in binary choices and hyperbolic extremes, not as a rhetorical device but as a means of ensuring people gravitate to poles rather than settling for moderate positions. Since the conservative position is frequently stronger in numbers when measured in binary positions, it’s a lucrative approach in the short run.

As Jasper says, the Frums help with that kind of thing.

Aye. There’s a certain gut satisfaction, schadenfreude even, in seeing old opponents finally see the light – but in the end I care more about my cousin in her gay marriage and society opening up such that she doesn’t have to deal with bigotry.

In order for this to happen there needs to be a grey area of begrudging compromise in the middle, for people on the right to slip over towards the side of justice for all.

Goddammit, fuck this.

Social change means winning people over to your way of thinking. Some people will take longer than others. Those who are deeply entrenched with the opposing side will take longer still.

It absolutely amazes me that you can take a guy who was avowedly opposed to what you wanted, but who now acknowledges that he was wrong, and still say “fuck that guy.” What a stupid, shortsighted, counterproductive attitude.

You aren’t going to persuade anyone if you take the attitude that “we’ve always been right, and fuck you if you didn’t see that from the get-go.” I’m more inclined to say “thank goodness you finally saw reason” and welcome him to the right side of the argument. I’m an atheist, but I think the Prodigal Son story is apropos here.

Amen, brother.

Yeah, I think you’re wrong. This gets discussed all the time. The conservative anti-gay folks just listen/believe it when you argue against this notion.

We live in a political environment where people like this exist.

(from the article linked)

“The gay-marriage movement is thus not the heir of the civil-rights movement; it is the heir of Bull Connor and others who tried to impose their false idea of moral reality on others by coercive state power.”

So yeah, in the grand scheme of things I find Frum reasonable.

Yeah, I think you’re wrong. This gets discussed all the time. The conservative anti-gay folks just listen/believe it when you argue against this notion.

Where? Editorials like the one that appeared in today’s Monitor trying to plumb the depths of conservative fears are comparatively rare.

While I can objectively accused someone of actively suppressing gay rights, that is often less effective than recognizing that, from their perspective, they are trying to preserve an imagined status quo. While I can insist that their facts are wrong and their “experts” phony, that is less effective than trying to understand why they feel that the scientific method “belongs” to one particular political party and not another.

I don’t see or hear anybody trying to discredit the idea that marriage is not a distinctly Christian concept, bought and paid for at the office.

I cited this in a related thread, but I think you might find thisarticle useful. Part of the problem you are highlighting is that both sides are engaging each other using the methodology they are most comfortable with, not the one that actually caters to the prejudices and strengths of the opposition. Which brings me to

I don’t see or hear anybody trying to discredit the idea that marriage is not a distinctly Christian concept, bought and paid for at the office.

I’m curious if I’m misreading this, but it seems like more of the same. It’s “animals are gay too, the bible also has x absurd command that we ignore, here’s the history of opposition to people being able to marry whomever they please” etc. That is, one that requires adherence to a scientific, precedent-based approach to culture rather than one based around common sense and a perception of how things have “always” been and used to be back in the good old days, to oversimplify the conservative stance somewhat.

In contrast, I think Frum is on to something. He gives conservatives a way to continue waging their culture war on behalf of family values, with giving ground on gay marriage being an economy of force maneuver in a broader campaign rather than a defeat. The whole second half of the article has little to do with the title and is basically slouching towards Gomorrah for the millionth time, which is the kind of enduring message that gets everyone all steely-eyed and ready for the next big thing. Which he hasn’t figured out, quite yet, but there’s always the possibility it won’t be just another hiccup in the no-issue politics we’ve grown so accustomed to seeing.

From my perspective, he’s clearly not my ally on a strategic level. But he’s someone who speaks my language part way, and there’s room for compromise since I don’t expect any of my beliefs to be implemented in their entirety, either. On the other end, Noam Chomsky, of all people, is making a concrete effort to trigger that creepy butterfly effect thing by which his ideas migrate so goddamned rapidly despite no one actually getting through his books, but this time around not being dismissive of the conservative upsurge in the Tea Party and trying to find common ground using traditionally leftist issues.

I didn’t really explain my opinion that well, sorry. I wasn’t saying “fuck that guy”, I was saying “I don’t trust that guy just yet”.

It’s fantastic that he’s come around on gay marriage, but it also seems awfully convenient and easy for him to do so just as that majority of the population starts to have the same opinion. I’m taking a wait and see approach here, with a bit of skepticism.

Again, I think you’re wrong. I find it…odd? Arrogant? That you believe that people trying to debate gay rights haven’t thought to do something as simple as address the perspective and fears of those on the anti side. Talk to them in their language, get to the root of their beliefs, understanding the reality behind the rhetoric, etc. Especially given situations where say, pro-gay marriage clergy are talking to their own colleagues, or people within the same family who disagree. Any situation where people from largely the same background/upbringing/overall worldview happen to differ on this topic.

Well, it depends. Is your goal ideological uniformity in keeping with your beliefs, or finding acceptable common ground on which to business with people that disagree with you? Because both of those are difficult, but one is more achievable and Frum-shaped.

Again, I think you’re wrong. I find it…odd? Arrogant? That you believe that people trying to debate gay rights haven’t thought to do something as simple as address the perspective and fears of those on the anti side. Talk to them in their language, get to the root of their beliefs, etc.

Where do you see that kind of dialogue taking place? I’ve never encountered it myself. I’ve heard many arguments contending that heterosexuals are doing a fine job of breaking down the paradigm of conventional marriage without any help from gays. Frum’s personal discovery, while although welcome, is nothing new under the sun. (Indeed, I couldn’t even explain to you the underlying logic behind Frum’s original theory that the mere opportunity of gay marriage would diminish heterosexual marraige, except to suggest that he and others are possibly buying into the spurious notion that there are so many potential homosexuals out there that the human race could make a collective choice to stop “breeding,” as it were – a choice it avoids only because of strict obedience to heterosexual norms. That’s quite a lot of menal gymnastics to reach what seems, at best, an astoundingly ridiculous conclusion.) I’ve never heard anybody try to unpackage and disprove the theory that gay marriage is merely a legal milestone on the route to censorship or sanitization of the Scriptures.

Part of the problem you are highlighting is that both sides are engaging each other using the methodology they are most comfortable with, not the one that actually caters to the prejudices and strengths of the opposition.

It’s also a great irony that conservatives have “learned” from liberals only imperfectly. They perceived great bias in news media, and so they rallied around Fox News, which, as today’s New York Times perceptively argues, makes a subtle attempt with its very motto to suggest that there is no such thing as objective truth. They perceive that one cannot be taken seriously without resorting to science, and so they line up scientists who have been discredited or who are in the significant minority in their fields. At worst, like anyone gripped by dogma, they understand the use of example and precedent only as tools, and become not only self-conscious, but offended, when their arguments are questioned.

It’s “animals are gay too, the bible also has x absurd command that we ignore, here’s the history of opposition to people being able to marry whomever they please” etc. That is, one that requires adherence to a scientific, precedent-based approach to culture rather than one based around common sense and a perception of how things have “always” been and used to be back in the good old days, to oversimplify the conservative stance somewhat.

You did misunderstand. It’s less about trying to explain why we should or shouldn’t do a thing than believing (incorrectly) that: (A) marriage is a distinctly Christian or Judeo-Christian concept first established, or at least popularized, and therefore “owned” by, the Church; (B) churches, although considered constitutionally inviolate, will be liable under the law to recognize and endorse homosexual couples by performing marriages upon request; (C) because the Church is often regarded as being in social opposition to “progressive” values, the fight over gay marriage can be considered representative of future culture wars; gays are using the law as a lever to force society to change its mind about its values system, contained in the Bible. These very spurious conclusions are built atop an equally spurious foundation of belief that all contemporary Western morality is derived from the Bible. Ultimately, then, what is really at play here is a fear that the United States Government, conceived as a practically autonomous and unrelentingly liberal entity, is interested in somehow de-Christianizing the American people – taking away the positive emotional and social reinforcement of the thought communities that have been stood up in and around churches. The gay marriage fight taps into a wellspring of resentment and fear of liberals and liberal causes on the part of Christians, who are increasingly uncomfortable with perceptions that they are gullible, uninformed, and intolerant. Calling them gullible, uninformed, and intolerant may satisfy our sense of superiority; it does nothing to bring about any change in their beliefs or behaviors.

If this was someone I knew in real life, of course I’d work with him to reach acceptable common ground and grow further. Seeing as I’ve never met Frum in real life and probably never will, I’m not really concerned about that, and am instead more interested in the popular opinion which he sways.

Even if it was someone I’ve only talked with on a message board, I’d actually put forth effort in finding common ground and growing from there since I’ve directly interacted with that person in some way. But the point here is that there’s no opportunity to do so with Frum, so all I’m left with is the hope that he’ll prove my skepticism wrong as time goes on.

(Indeed, I couldn’t even explain to you the underlying logic behind Frum’s original theory that the mere opportunity of gay marriage would diminish heterosexual marraige, except to suggest that he and others are possibly buying into the spurious notion that there are so many potential homosexuals out there that the human race could make a collective choice to stop “breeding,” as it were – a choice it avoids only because of strict obedience to heterosexual norms. That’s quite a lot of menal gymnastics to reach what seems, at best, an astoundingly ridiculous conclusion.)

Teaching moment! Think of it as a research project. Suppose Frum doesn’t consider your position as he articulates it superior, it’s merely viable at this point. You’re still DEEP in the hole if your goal is uniformity of opinion.

It’s a bit too soon to be counting coup, as well. There’s no reason to assume NY won’t pull a Maine, is there?

Maine would have been the sixth state in the country to allow gay and lesbian couples to marry, but instead becomes the 31st state to oppose the unions in a popular vote.

Teaching moment! Think of it as a research project. Suppose Frum doesn’t consider your position as he articulates it superior, it’s merely viable at this point.

What are you trying to say?

You’re still DEEP in the hole if your goal is uniformity of opinion.

My goal is to point out that many liberal supporters of gay marriage have not tried to identify or address conservative fears; instead, they dismiss them as simple bigotry. That may be emotionally very satisfying, but it does nothing to change their opinions, and usually only makes them more intransigent. The Tea Party Movement was as much a popular reaction to liberal attacks on conservative intelligence as a coherent movement designed to “reform” the Republican Party.

It’s a bit too soon to be counting coup, as well. There’s no reason to assume NY won’t pull a Maine, is there?

Already addressed. The New York vote appears safe, if only because of the level of bipartisan support signified by the fact that the primary source of money for the pro-gay marriage push came from conservative and Republican donors.

I like to think Frum has done some soul-searching since the `08 GOP defeat and is (finally) willing both to admit past errors and buck the GOP establishment. He was also critical of GOP tactics during the HCR debate, which cost him his job at AEI. Maybe he stopped drinking the Kool-Aid after leaving the White House?