Congrats to New York

[inactive_user]

@Hugin

We live in a political environment where people like this exist.

[Damien_Falgoust]

@Hugin

We live in a political environment where people like this exist.

I feel stupider for having read that. It’s like he never heard of Loving v. Virginia.

[ReptileHouse]

@unbongwah

I like to think Frum has done some soul-searching since the `08 GOP defeat and is (finally) willing both to admit past errors and buck the GOP establishment. He was also critical of GOP tactics during the HCR debate, which cost him his job at AEI. Maybe he stopped drinking the Kool-Aid after leaving the White House?

I suspect you’re right. He’s seen the consequences of the actions, and doesn’t much like it. So he’s doing a bit of soul searching. It’s the willingness to say, publicly, “I was wrong,” that’s getting my grudging respect. I have a hard time buying that he’s doing it for political expediency, since as you point out, it’s costing him pretty badly in that department.

@Lizard_King

Well, it depends. Is your goal ideological uniformity in keeping with your beliefs, or finding acceptable common ground on which [do] to business with people that disagree with you? Because both of those are difficult, but one is more achievable and Frum-shaped.

Completely agreed. I’m firmly in the latter camp (pragmatic, basically) on most topics. That makes for some “fun” fights with folks I generally agree with. It’s also why I’m still generally an Obama supporter, even though I may disagree with specifics. He’s pretty good at the art of the possible.

[Crispus]

@Desert Journeyman

It’s less about trying to explain why we should or shouldn’t do a thing than believing (incorrectly) that: (A) marriage is a distinctly Christian or Judeo-Christian concept first established, or at least popularized, and therefore “owned” by, the Church; (B) churches, although considered constitutionally inviolate, will be liable under the law to recognize and endorse homosexual couples by performing marriages upon request; (C) because the Church is often regarded as being in social opposition to “progressive” values, the fight over gay marriage can be considered representative of future culture wars; gays are using the law as a lever to force society to change its mind about its values system, contained in the Bible. These very spurious conclusions are built atop an equally spurious foundation of belief that all contemporary Western morality is derived from the Bible. Ultimately, then, what is really at play here is a fear that the United States Government, conceived as a practically autonomous and unrelentingly liberal entity, is interested in somehow de-Christianizing the American people – taking away the positive emotional and social reinforcement of the thought communities that have been stood up in and around churches. The gay marriage fight taps into a wellspring of resentment and fear of liberals and liberal causes on the part of Christians, who are increasingly uncomfortable with perceptions that they are gullible, uninformed, and intolerant. Calling them gullible, uninformed, and intolerant may satisfy our sense of superiority; it does nothing to bring about any change in their beliefs or behaviors.

As someone who interacts regularly with lots of conservative Christians, I can vouch for the accuracy of most of the above. I don’t often hear about point B (fear that churches will be forced to conduct gay marriages), but the other points are regular mentions when this topic comes up. Their biggest concern is that gay marriage equates to society stating that homosexuality is normal and not immoral, which they fear will eventually result in their anti-homosexuality teachings being censored. They also fear that their children will be indoctrinated into accepting the normality of homosexuality, and rejecting the Bible, in school. More generally, they fear a society that they think is slowly turning on them, coming into a position where, one-by-one, it rejects every single one of their teachings and embraces the opposite. They fully believe this is Satan’s work, and that they are part of a spiritual tug-of-war over the future of the country.

[Flowers]

It is sad that so many self-professed libertarians oppose gay marriage simply because they see marriage as a good and homosexuals as members of a different political party. Some people oppose gay marriage because they simply do not know enough about gays or marriage. But the people who write articles for periodicals like the National Review know better.

If David Weigel believes God made certain people homosexual and declared they should not be allowed to know love or bond for life with the one person that means the most to them, the right thing would be to defy God, because God is wrong.

You don’t let people die just to keep the Sabbath Holy.

[Aeon221]

@Lizard_King

David Frum “I was wrong about same-sex marriage”

Cultural Victory Won: 6/27/2011.

Start a New Game or Continue Playing?

[Hugin]

@Crispus

As someone who interacts regularly with lots of conservative Christians, I can vouch for the accuracy of most of the above. I don’t often hear about point B (fear that churches will be forced to conduct gay marriages), but the other points are regular mentions when this topic comes up. Their biggest concern is that gay marriage equates to society stating that homosexuality is normal and not immoral, which they fear will eventually result in their anti-homosexuality teachings being censored. They also fear that their children will be indoctrinated into accepting the normality of homosexuality, and rejecting the Bible, in school. More generally, they fear a society that they think is slowly turning on them, coming into a position where, one-by-one, it rejects every single one of their teachings and embraces the opposite. They fully believe this is Satan’s work, and that they are part of a spiritual tug-of-war over the future of the country.

That’s not the part I object to. It’s the notion that people who debate same sex marriage with these people don’t know these things. Like I said, some of the people who debate these issues are exactly these people, except they for whatever reason support SSM. They have an intimate and lifelong knowledge of the fears of conservative Christians because that’s the environment they themselves came from.

[John_Many_Jars]

I just want to say that I could never be a homophobe, because watching two chicks is just y’know

[Desert_Journeyman]

They also fear that their children will be indoctrinated into accepting the normality of homosexuality, and rejecting the Bible, in school. More generally, they fear a society that they think is slowly turning on them, coming into a position where, one-by-one, it rejects every single one of their teachings and embraces the opposite.

This is a pervasive point of view, and, more problematically, one shared by a great number of people who are not especially religious, but who are willing to look the other way on certain other people’s fundamental rights in order to try to preserve a status quo that discourages acts they personally find unappealing or objectionable. A combination of, “Ew, I don’t want to see two men kiss,” and, “Well, I’d rather my children didn’t get the impression that this kind of thing is really an acceptable option for them.”

That’s not the part I object to. It’s the notion that people who debate same sex marriage with these people don’t know these things. Like I said, some of the people who debate these issues are exactly these people, except they for whatever reason support SSM. They have an intimate and lifelong knowledge of the fears of conservative Christians because that’s the environment they themselves came from.

You’re in a minority, friend. Most people stop at, “It’s very wrong to extend rights to some but not others,” and, “You’re very bigoted!”

[Hugin]

@Desert Journeyman

You’re in a minority, friend. Most people stop at, “It’s very wrong to extend rights to some but not others,” and, “You’re very bigoted!”

Maybe at the shallow level of cable news pundits and web forums. When serious people discuss the subject seriously, this sort of thing is routine.