Belatedly started watching this. Was a bit disappointed to begin with, to be honest, given the positive buzz — the action scenes were well choreographed even in the early episodes, but a lot of the acting (Foggy is the worst) and the other production values are passable at best, and a big step down from the cable shows.
But it builds up nicely, and vincent d’onofrio is wonderful as Kingpin, and by the time they introduced Scott Glenn I was starting to really be sold. Just watched episode 8 and really like how the story arc and characters have progressed. And the action choreography is actually pretty stunning for a TV show.
I’ve recently started watching this past the first few episodes and wow does it get better. I especially enjoy Fisk and Vanessa, who are pretty damn awesome! I just wish they would tone down the violence - Does it really add anything?
Well, isn’t it the violence (the horrible things Kingpin does, the amount of struggle DD has to go through to fight against him) that makes Fisk awesome?
It’s the contrast - one would like to feel sympathy for the Kingpin, as Vanessa does (because she doesn’t see the other side, she only sees the Kingpin’s sensitive side, she only senses the tremendous will and capacity for violence seething underneath, and that makes him glamorous to her).
But because we see the concrete, brutal results of the Kingpin’s desires and actions, and we’re with our hero in the nitty-gritty struggle against them, we’re not so … tempted.
I don’t agree - And its not just with Fisk, its the violence throughout the series - it could have been done less obvious, less in your face, and we’d still see the same results. I guess I’m not a fan of the violence depicted here, and I’m sure we could have gotten the same excellent show, with it toned down a bit.
Anyways - the show IS great actually - its just a shame that it turns away so many people (From my social circle, at least) because of the rather extreme violence depicted from time to time.
edited to add: I DO understand your point though, and of course I can’t be certain the show would be as good, or Fisk as interesting as he is with it toned down.
My America must be showing; when I finally managed to get through it about a week after the rest of the internet, I found the actual, on-screen violence to be a step or two lower than what everyone was crowing about. There’s some clever cut-aways and the like to avoid showing the pointlessly gruesome (for instance, I was pretty sure I’d see every sickening moment of a certain head-squishing, based on what everyone was saying).
But hey, I live in a nation in love with slasher pics and I think Hannibal is just about the neatest thing on TV since boobies, so maybe I am a little desensitized compared to the relatively sane bunch you spend time with, Razgon :)
That was my one real complaint with the series. The violence, at times, gets excessively graphic. There are ways to imply the same level of violence on the part of Fisk and others without actually showing it in such detail. Broadcast TV shows have been doing it for years for both violence and sex. Similar to Razgon, I have plenty of friends I know who would love Daredevil, but would be completely turned off by, for instance, seeing someone literally beaten to a pulp.
That said, I know everyone has different tolerance levels for things like this. And, I will admit, Fisk’s temper tantrums would not have had the same emotional impact on the viewer had they been depicted more off-camera.
I dunno – the violence is one of the refreshing things about the show, from my point of view. Remember it’s a super-hero TV show, and the extreme violence is kind of a trope-buster for the genre: we’re used to stuff like Smallville or The Avengers or Iron Man or even Buffy never showing us any of the predictably gruesome results of punching someone out or getting thrown into a wall. In most super-hero shows, the hero or the villain get knocked out for a few moments, then get up and dust themselves off with - at worst - a small, cosmetically-advantageous trickle of blood to show the audience they’ve been hurt. Hell, usually it’s the WALL that shows most of the damage in a super-hero show/movie.
It’s precisely because of the car incident that Fisk is one of the most terrifying villains ever portrayed in a superhero show. The sheer … continuous … relentless … anger … continuing … beyond all reason, beyond any utilitarian point, is part of what goes to make him mythically scary, so ups the anticipation of our hero having to confront him (and also adds that nice touch with the Catholicism, with our hero doubting himself momentarily, as all proper heroes should - he knows such a monster has to be dealt with, otherwise he’s going to carry on relentlessly fucking up human life, and surely the easiest way to deal with him would be to kill him, and he’d certainly like to kill him … ).
And it also makes the “beauty and the beast” moments with Vanessa all the more poignant.
No, normally I think there’s far too much gratuitous violence on tv and in films - I’m sick to death of cop tropes, gangster tropes, spy movies, etc., etc. - but here I think the violence is very appropriate and very well done.
Well, in defense of the violence-averse, the car door incident might not be the first thing they’re thinking of. My sister loved the show but almost didn’t make it through a few episodes based on violence; I specifically remember her hating that henchman who kills himself on the fence post, and all the fairly gruesome slicing that happens in DD’s fight with that ninja later on. Those and a couple scenes I’ve forgotten were all worse for her than the car door scene.
So on one hand, I think you could make a pretty good case for the importance of Fisk’s scene and keeping it intact (it was even mostly off-screen already and more horrible by implication than what’s shown), while wishing the violence elsewhere was toned down, and not sound like a hypocrite or anything.
But for my part, I’m fine with the violence on the whole show, and I think it’s a fair counter-point to make that you’re still changing the show even if “all you do” is tone down the violence. The significance of that first reveal of Fisk’s monstrosity is more obvious than why they decided the henchman had to impale himself on a fence, so it can be harder to articulate a defense for the latter (the fence defense?), but those little decisions scene-to-scene about what we’re shown still shape the final work.
It’s precisely because of the car incident that Fisk is one of the most terrifying villains ever portrayed in a superhero show.
I don’t necessarily think anyone who thinks the violence is a bit overdone is saying don’t have those scenes. I’m certainly not. I think it still be possible to convey that Fisk is enraged and beating someone to death without the extra blood spurts and squish sounds. The later gruesome display of the body on the table did not need to show a partial head to indicate the brutality of Fisk’s actions. The self-impalement scene could have been done without the last instant cutaway from the jagged piece of glass (metal?), and still conveyed the moment. It’s pushing the limit for…I’m not sure? Pushing the limit’s sake? To make it clear this show is squarely in the R-rated category (if it was a movie)?
The funny thing is, the show spends the first two-thirds of the season establishing this as the level it’s going for, but then actually does end up toning things down some in the last third. My wife, who really loved the story and the characters, had to give it up a little over halfway through because she couldn’t take the gore…and then the gore pretty much stopped.
Fisk’s reveal as a psychopathic killer is important to the story and the violence is part of that. Murdock inhabits a violent gritty street-level war, and until Fisk’s car door incident he’s not seemingly a part of that same world. He operates above it. Literally, (always in high-rise, rich environments) as well as figuratively. He’s a gentleman. Granted, he’s shown as having some personality quirks, and he’s well aware of the dirty stuff going on below him, but he’s a mannered, cultured individual. The side Vanessa sees is the side we see. Until that door slam.
Of course, most viewers know The Kingpin is a killer, but that anticipation works for the setup anyway. No one watching the show is fooled by Fisk’s gentleman act towards Vanessa. We all know he’s a murderer.
The violence of Fisk killing that mook is the payoff for the slow build-up. Fisk is a coiled spring and when he finally pops, it’s supposed to be shocking. “Oh, this is what you were waiting for?” the show said. “You wanted to see Kingpin lose his shit? Well, here. How do you like him now?”
At that point, the narrative turns. We now know that he’s not just a ruthless gangster. He’s a damn psycho killer. The interaction with Vanessa is different for the viewer. He’s not shy guy come a courtin’. He’s a self-deceiving maniac that thinks he’s above the streets. It’s telling that he only finally comes to this realization at the end of the season in that truck.
The personal violence from Fisk is important to show just how thin the line is between him and Murdock. If Fisk kept his hands clean, he would come off as much less passionate. He’s written as truly believing in what’s he doing, just as Murdock does. They just have different limits as to how far they will use violence to further what they view as the greater good. Murdock’s own fascination/addiction to violence also draws the two characters closer together.
I think it’s a fantastic juxtaposition of hero and villain.
I’m in this boat. The stuff that Fisk did didn’t seem gratuitous to me, because it was defining his character. Could it have been done differently? Probably, but at least it served a purpose. But elsewhere in the show, there’s a goodly amount of extreme violence that doesn’t define any characters, or add to the plot, or really serve any purpose outside of shock value. I wouldn’t have minded if they’d cut out quite a bit of it.
Man, that scene is chilling where he says, “I am the ill intent”.
Great show, re-watched it recently and it still holds up, in fact it’s so highly detailed with great acting and fight scenes, it’s well worth sitting through a second time - even more epic and mythic.
Got through the remaining episodes on the weekend, and my appreciation continued to rise at least until the ending, which was a bit anti-climatic. The endings for the previous 2 episodes were stunning, however - did not see either of those things coming, especially the 2nd, which was amazing. I liked all the characters, and actors, more as the show went on, but Fisk really stole every scene he was in - mesmerizing performance.
Personally very much liked the darker story and related violence, and look forward to seeing Netflix further develop its corner of the Marvel universe. Definitely my favorite superhero TV show ever (sorry Lou Ferrigno) although it’s still weak in some respects, like the production values generally other than fight choreography, and the acting depth chart.
Watching this show will probably finally liberate me from enduring crap like Agent Carter solely to get a few glimpses of something recognizably Marvel - happy to drop that, and maybe Agents of SHIELD too, even though it significantly improved from its early episodes - it just feels too light on Marvel content, and what is included is so diluted and different that I don’t really get much of a thrill of seeing someone like Mockingbird, Deathlok or Absorbing Man, as their resemblance to the comic counterparts and backstory/lore and even powers is superficial, at best.
Exactly - There are ways of doing things that doesnt necessitate someone impaling themselves on sharp spears with all the gory results. Much of the violence and blood seems to be there just to be edgy and dark, and the show certainly doesn’t need that, since its themes are dark enough in themselves. Who didn’t squirm uncomfortable in House of Cards, episode 9 in the car? Things can be done differently to great results, if only the showmakers dare believe in their own show completely, instead of relying on hooks and gimmicks.
So that’s two seasons where the first half is a lot more meh, and the second half is much better, for SHIELD. Makes me wish it was doing 12-13 ep runs or so on FX or the like. Dispense with the filler and focus on what’s working.
This is my favorite part of the whole show. I love sympathetic villains, and I love heroes who genuinely resemble their worst enemies.
Also, when reading about the reactions to the violence in this thread, I can’t help but think 1960s viewers of things like The Great Escape would say the same thing about shows like Band of Brothers. But I also don’t think Quentin Tarantino is excessive, so what do I know.
