Since this thread has gone way off track anyways, what is the consensus on Kotor2? worth it or not? Xbox or PC?
Worth it, I think. Caveat, he quests are buggy and the ending is downright broken. The influence system is static (meaning that to influence good people you have to do good deeds, even if you’ve already influenced them to become death incarnate), and therefore near worthless.
Better than the first. I’ve only played on PC though.
Worse, in my opinion. I loved KOTOR and played it all the way through twice. I never finished the sequel at all.
[quote=“roguefrog”]
p.s. the only console fallout is FOBOS, and it is abysmal…[/quote]
naaa It wasn’t abysmal. It was an average overhead action rpg that was brought up by a non fantasy setting and taken down more steps for using the word “fuck” every 1.3 seconds.
Fair comments but I would have to disagree. I think the idea of the bad-guy running the show is much more a traditional D&D campaign story-line. Where the DM manipulates the players via an arch-enemy and his minions. Eventually the players will (hopefully) get their revenge on the bad guy. What made BG2 bad guy even better was that once you did get your revenge I still (and my wife as well) felt sorry for him. Yes he deserved to die. But he was a sad character at his core. Very few games have gotten that kind of emotive response from me (where you actually feel for the NPCs) with only BG2 and Planescape coming to mind.
I would also have to say that once you take the game as a whole I think its a better game. The side quests were great. The voice acting was great. And there were lots of little side-plots you could set-up for yourself to beat (like the Lichs and the Mage-guard). We found the game very challenging but we played through both games and all expansions as a duo without any NPC help (triple class half-elves to make up for weaknesses). So we created for ourselves an artificial handicap.
From my playing of BG1 I always thought that the game was about directionless wandering through large wilderness areas that had nothing to do with the story.[/quote]
Though I never thought I’d actually agree with anything Graeme Dice said on these boards … I got the same feel as well. I still loved BG1 but I thought overall BG2 was a superior game.
As regards to KOTOR2 and Jade Empire I didn’t like either. I did like KOTOR1 very much. I struggled through KOTOR2 to about the 50% mark and then gave up. It just wasn’t interesting. I played Jade Empire for about 3 hours but it didn’t grab me so I shelved it as well.
This is actually true, BG2 is incredibly deep but not very wide. You’re forced along the designers’ path and have no significant choices about how to proceed. You can’t define your own destiny, which is what role playing is all about. BG2 isn’t a great role playing game in the classic definition. It is however an incredibly well-crafted and fun game and TOB’s ending was incredibly satisfying.
I don’t know if you’ll find a consensus here, given the vast differences seen already in what I thought were pretty noncontroversially “good” games. Let me preface by saying I enjoyed KOTOR I despite the Star Wars elements (which I dislike for a lot of movie reasons) and even enjoyed Jade for the little bit that it lasted. But KOTOR II was unsat. None of the charming broken bits of the first were really improved that much, especially the combat, animation, ridiculous false binary dialogue options, etc.
The plot was awful. Let’s forget about the logical contradictions: being the “last jedi” in a universe apparently chock full of jedi of all kinds, etc. Let’s forget the obvious giveways about character surprises. Lets just take a long, hard look at the absolutely ridiculous villain buildup to closure/climax ratio, then multiply it by the railroaded plot twists and pointless occasional openendedness. It’s just bad.
Honestly, it’s not just that I’m sorry it sucked. I’m really sorry it sucked so horribly that I sincerely regret beating it, and had a tough time time getting back into rpg’s for a while thereafter. Thank goodness I was left with nothing but Torment to replay for a little while and remembered what games were about again.
Avoid it. I mean, I guess being a Star Wars junkie might make it worth looking at, but I have a hard time accepting that.
I don’t know if you’ll find a consensus here, given the vast differences seen already in what I thought were pretty noncontroversially “good” games. Let me preface by saying I enjoyed KOTOR I despite the Star Wars elements (which I dislike for a lot of movie reasons) and even enjoyed Jade for the little bit that it lasted. But KOTOR II was unsat. None of the charming broken bits of the first were really improved that much, especially the combat, animation, ridiculous false binary dialogue options, etc.
The plot was awful. Let’s forget about the logical contradictions: being the “last jedi” in a universe apparently chock full of jedi of all kinds, etc. Let’s forget the obvious giveways about character surprises. Lets just take a long, hard look at the absolutely ridiculous villain buildup to closure/climax ratio, then multiply it by the railroaded plot twists and pointless occasional openendedness. It’s just bad.
Honestly, it’s not just that I’m sorry it sucked. I’m really sorry it sucked so horribly that I sincerely regret beating it, and had a tough time time getting back into rpg’s for a while thereafter. Thank goodness I was left with nothing but Torment to replay for a little while and remembered what games were about again.
Avoid it. I mean, I guess being a Star Wars junkie might make it worth looking at, but I have a hard time accepting that.[/quote]
I have to agree. I barely remember what playing KOTOR 2 was like but I do remember being excruciatingly regretful at the lost time afterwards. BioWare lost a lot of cred then which Jade Empire did nothing to alleviate.
Uh… that’s last known Jedi. Did you miss the part where you track down the rest of them? That was the whole game, actually. And six Jedi in the whole universe is hardly “chock full.”
Avoid it. I mean, I guess being a Star Wars junkie might make it worth looking at, but I have a hard time accepting that.
Bah. I’m not a Star Wars fan at all, and I loved it to death. The characters were all so much better than those in the first, every single one of them. The parts where your team splits up are great. I loved the addition of Force-related equipment from non-Jedi force users. It was so good.
KotOR 2 is worth playing on the PC. It’s in kind of an unfinished state, though, and ends very awkwardly. There’s currently a project to complete the game by reincorporating its dormant content. You might want to wait for that.
A potent argument in favor of getting it right now, though: FORCE CRUSH. Best force power ever. Made one of the final battles absolutely hilarious. “You can never defeat m-- ouch ouch ouch! I am not yet bea-- ouch ouch ouch! How can you be so str-- ouch ouch ouch! I surrend-- ouch ouch ouch!”
I agree with this, apart from not being so happy with ToB. There’s no doubt BioWare paid close attention to the criticism of BG1 and reacted accordingly, but the side-quests (particularly Ch.2) are the only freedom you have. I can understand why some people disliked the open wilderness areas of BG1 but I loved it.
KoTOR is decent but I never understood why some see it as the second coming.
It has been some years since I played Fallout 1 and 2 but how would you build a sequel at all? The ending for 2 was pretty much total closure. Sure you could set some other story in the same world (a Paranoia style domed city would be great) but I can’t see how you would follow the old story-line in anyway.
Honestly, it’s not just that I’m sorry it sucked. I’m really sorry it sucked so horribly that I sincerely regret beating it, and had a tough time time getting back into rpg’s for a while thereafter. Thank goodness I was left with nothing but Torment to replay for a little while and remembered what games were about again.
The irony. MCA is the lead designer/writer of Torment and KotORII
Ok, I’ll play your sick game. True or false? Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin, part of a continuum? True or false, Sith are supposed to be few in number and thus so overpowered seemingly relative to the jedi, vs jedi who “share” their side of the force, or whatever. Therefore, I am confused when Bad Guy Intel permits them to plant their chief nemesis literally on me but considers me the last of the “extinct” jedi despite the ease with which my morally retarded character dug up the rest of the crew. After which I slaughter literally millions of Sith.
Which brings me back to my point. Last Jedi my ass.
Also, you reminded me of the Highlander 2esque idiocy behind the bad guy’s plan. I mean, come on. Talk about provoking your own demise.
Bah. I’m not a Star Wars fan at all, and I loved it to death. The characters were all so much better than those in the first, every single one of them.
So you didn’t find Kreia painfully obvious, your initial male sidekick horribly stereotyped, etc. The KOTOR I betrayal blew that one way. So did HK, come to think of it.
The wookie I did like, but mainly because he was broken and easily upgradeable to hilarious stats.
The parts where your team splits up are great.
I guess that is really a dividing line between people, among others. There are those who like to be forced to use characters, and those who don’t. You can guess which category I am in. I much prefer to develop certain characters and ignore those I don’t like, up to and including ignoring their plot extras.
I don’t really regard it as a negative since it was somewhat legitimately implemented. I guess if I have to do it I would prefer a Xenosaga/Wild Arms prologue technique (a part I liked of otherwise questionable games), but whatever.
I loved the addition of Force-related equipment from non-Jedi force users. It was so good.
I don’t know, it just felt very strained. I appreciate all the little efforts to try to make the inventory more sophisticated, but ultimately it was just fluff to me. I felt like I was time travelling to the first game with the rebuilding the lightsaber quest (I mean come on) and the crystals etc were ok at first but just annoying later. No part of the game makes any demands on you tactically or stat wise, so it comes down to Barbie like wardrobe choices and the like.
That would certainly be incentive for a first look if they pull it off, to be sure.
A potent argument in favor of getting it right now, though: FORCE CRUSH. Best force power ever. Made one of the final battles absolutely hilarious. “You can never defeat m-- ouch ouch ouch! I am not yet bea-- ouch ouch ouch! How can you be so str-- ouch ouch ouch! I surrend-- ouch ouch ouch!”
Yeah, that was hilarious. Kind of a tragic summary of the crappiness of the combat balance, but a little satisfying after the number of times the plot twists serve your ass on a platter when you know damned well you could crush them all.
Indeed.
If you meant “away”…meh. You can play the same game with KotOR: Kreia was painfully obvious? At least she wasn’t just Jaheira/frigging Aribeth recycled into Bastila. Mission was simply Imoen repackaged. And the “I was the the most powerful Sith in the universe but I forgot” thing was ordinary. As much as KotOR2 was flawed, the characters had a little texture, instead of being BioWare’s standard archetypes.
Ok, I’ll play your sick game. True or false? Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin, part of a continuum? True or false, Sith are supposed to be few in number and thus so overpowered seemingly relative to the jedi, vs jedi who “share” their side of the force, or whatever. Therefore, I am confused when Bad Guy Intel permits them to plant their chief nemesis literally on me but considers me the last of the “extinct” jedi despite the ease with which my morally retarded character dug up the rest of the crew. After which I slaughter literally millions of Sith.
Which brings me back to my point. Last Jedi my ass.
Also, you reminded me of the Highlander 2esque idiocy behind the bad guy’s plan. I mean, come on. Talk about provoking your own demise.[/quote]
Being two sides of the same coin doesn’t make you the same thing. If the Sith are trying to destroy all the Jedi, that obviously doesn’t mean they’re trying to destroy all the Sith too.
[quote]Bah. I’m not a Star Wars fan at all, and I loved it to death. The characters were all so much better than those in the first, every single one of them.
So you didn’t find Kreia painfully obvious, your initial male sidekick horribly stereotyped, etc. The KOTOR I betrayal blew that one way. So did HK, come to think of it.
The wookie I did like, but mainly because he was broken and easily upgradeable to hilarious stats. [/quote]
I didn’t find Kreia painfully obvious, or obvious at all, really, and I thought she was a pretty interesting character, because she went beyond the standard jackoff light/dark Star Wars morality spectrum.
And while Atton wasn’t my favorite character, he was sure better than Carth. Canderous is at least as interesting the second time, as is HK. All the rest of the characters are easily better than their KOTOR1 counterparts… I mean, come on, Mission? Juhani? In the immortal words of Ill Mitch, “Give me break.”
[quote]I loved the addition of Force-related equipment from non-Jedi force users. It was so good.
I don’t know, it just felt very strained. I appreciate all the little efforts to try to make the inventory more sophisticated, but ultimately it was just fluff to me. [/quote]
If you say so. I thought it enriched the universe quite a bit, and I found myself wishing for another game/something to delve into the history of some of those other groups.
I felt like I was time travelling to the first game with the rebuilding the lightsaber quest (I mean come on) and the crystals etc were ok at first but just annoying later. No part of the game makes any demands on you tactically or stat wise, so it comes down to Barbie like wardrobe choices and the like.
Look, D20 sucks, and every problem in this segment of your post was as bad or worse in the original.
I thought KotOR 2 was a fucking GREAT game.
I am also a big fan of The Temple of Elemental Evil.
Shrug.