Fallout 3?

Games
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Why? Even I know there is only supposed to be 1 Sith Lord with one apprentice. I always saw the rest as fallen Jedi struggling to be the number one bad guy (which I could buy as a plausible source of enemies), but KOTOR I and II to an insane degree turned it into an assembly line of Foot Clan like goons.

I didn’t find Kreia painfully obvious, or obvious at all, really, and I thought she was a pretty interesting character, because she went beyond the standard jackoff light/dark Star Wars morality spectrum.

Yeah, I can see that. I guess what is complexity and sophistication to some is simply painfully irritating ambiguity and hamhanded HINTS to others. I just thought the latter was more of a universal impression.

And while Atton wasn’t my favorite character, he was sure better than Carth. Canderous is at least as interesting the second time, as is HK. All the rest of the characters are easily better than their KOTOR1 counterparts… I mean, come on, Mission? Juhani? In the immortal words of Ill Mitch, “Give me break.”

Right, but rather than compare the two directly, my point was that in the first it was easy to be completely oblivious to the ones I did not like. But in retrospect I guess that I did like some of the npc’s quite a bit, like the Handmaiden and Visas. Which leads into…

Look, D20 sucks, and every problem in this segment of your post was as bad or worse in the original.

I think the real deal is that 1) nostalgia has glossed over KOTOR I a great deal and 2) KOTOR 2 did not do anywhere near enough to fix its shortcomings. They were ok once around, but nearly intolerable the second, years later. Of course, the above mentioned remix/expansion might help a great deal…it was all the more frustrating that there were so many hints of greatness in the 2nd that were obscured by its obviously rushed presentation. Hell, it makes Bloodlines 1.0 look incredibly polished by comparison. But I wouldn’t touch the current version without a great deal of temerity.

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Hell, it makes Bloodlines 1.0 look incredibly polished by comparison.

A rather interesting comparison. Both games have noted performance issues and half-ass ending portions. Overall Bloodlines was the better game for me, but my computer absolutely hated running it. On the flip side my computer didn’t mind running KotOR 2. (In fact KotOR 1 was worst as far as game stopping bugs for my computer. I had to wait for the first patch due to that nasty chipset issue)

But the real comparison: Bloodlines lackluster ending segments vs KotOR 2s unfinished ending segment!

It’s a tough call-- but I think KotOR 2 hurts more with all the loose ends and obviously cut content even though it’s a much shorter portion of the game in comparison (because it could have been great!). At least Bloodlines had a proper conclusion to story. (regardless whether you thought it was good or bad)

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KoTOR 1 had the most amateurish and silly expository tutorial sequence I’ve ever seen in a game. Turned me off the whole series the moment I get a call on my communicator and someone says “I’m calling you on your communicator.” No shit? The dialogue continued that level of sophistication throughout the first 5 or so hours, which was all I could take.

From watching roommates play KoTOR2, they didn’t beef up the writing or fix anything that was wrong with the first game.

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I sent a mail to Bethsaida asking about Fallout3. They promptly replied and said that they were still in the very early stages of the game and had no info to release. So at least something is being done even if its minor.

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I guess you’d have to be a Star Wars nerd to know this, but the ‘two Sith only’ thing didn’t come about until a thousand years before the classic trilogy. The KOTOR games take place several thousand years earlier.

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All is made clear by the Star Wars Databank.

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You’re crazy, the ending to Bloodlines was awesome.

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ohhhh. aids…

So, um, garin, does that mean the whole “Foot Clan” approach to the Sith is accurate?

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Sorry, thought this was the Fallout 3 thread ;)

My question is this. Do you think they will stick to realtime, pausible, or turn-based combat? Bethesda’s games are all realtime (AFAIK). Do you speculate that they are going to stick to the roots of the series or try to move it in a different direction, game-engine wise? I love Elder Scrolls, so I wouldn’t mind a FP style Fallout game. But for nostalgiac reasons, I think I would prefer the isometric, turn-base style game I loved.

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Pure speculation…but I’m pretty confident they’ll make a 1st-person action-combat game – Morrowind with Guns is the term used by some Fallout fans. Pete Hines has said several times phrases like (paraphrased) “we’ll probably stick with what we know” and “we aren’t suddenly going to make a different type of game”.

There are two main issues - should the game be true to its roots (iso, turn-based) and can/will Bethesda do a good job of making an RPG that is almost the opposite of Elder Scrolls, with deep dialogue trees and an excellent character development system.

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Thats where I differ from the codex crowd. I think perspective and a single game mechanic is seperate and less important than setting and story.

/edit: Here is a huge post I made back when it was first annouced over a year ago the Bethesda would be making Fallout games

Let me preference this by saying I am a big fan of the entire post apocalypse genre. In the late 70s, while most kids were playing D&D, I was playing Metamorphosis Alpha and Gamma World. Through out the years as RPG gaming when from Pen & Paper to computers I played Wasteland, Fountain of Dreams, and every single Fallout game. In fact I recently was replaying the original Fallout on an old Power Mac I just rebuilt. This list I’ve been working on since the first Fallout 3 so it doesn’t’t necessarily apply to Bethesda’s announcements.

The 10 things that make Fallout Fallout and should be used in Fallout 3.

  1. Retro future gone wrong. The best fallout games are never far from their retro futuristic roots. In the 1930s to 50s we had a very different view of what the future would be. Fallout used this as a starting point. To me, this is the defining feature of the Fallout universe. Straying from this and you end up with Mad Max or Postman.
  2. Established universe character and items. Things such as Ghouls, radscorps, tribes, nuka cola, postcards, pip boy, and so forth.
  3. Character stats affect game play. Most crpgs, character stats just affect how hard a puzzle or combat is. In Fallout 1 & 2, they really changed how the game is played.
  4. Perks. These are at the heart of customizing your character in the fallout universe.
  5. Morbid humor. Things are bleak but if you don’t make them at least somewhat twisted, it ruins the enjoyment of the game. Fallout is not survival horror.
  6. The music. Should be 1950s and creepy sci fi. No hip hop or rock.
  7. Vague history and world status. We really don’t know what happen and what the status of the rest of the world is and this game shouldn’t change that.
  8. Over the top violence.
  9. Sex. While it doesn’t need to be XXX in your face (after all, probably need to avoid the dreaded A raying) , sexual relationships were a function in Both Fallout 1 & II and in the back ground of their other games.
  10. Harold. – Nuff said

10 things from Fallout that are nice to haves but aren’t required for Fallout 3

  1. Turn based combat. While I would hate to see a real time combat engine in the same vain as Diablo, I don’t need turn base gaming. I use to be a turn based only junkie. Partly because I am disabled (paralyzed on the right side) and turn based is the easiest system for me to control. However real time combat that can be paused to issue orders at any time is ok. Thanks to Star Wars, Knight of the Old Republic, I can say that other systems are completely playable.
  2. The S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Its familiar so it would be nice to see return. It does have its problems and could see it be improved or replaced if the need came.
  3. The Isometric view. Its still a viable view as NWN and dungeon siege has shown but I wouldn’t mind something along the lines of Morrowind or SW:KOTOR.
  4. The existing story line. While I would like to see the story line of the Wanderer continued, I don’t think its that important.
  5. Pets and spouses. They were neat, but if they didn’t add to the story, why bother.
  6. Taboo subjects such as drug use, prostitution, slavery, incest and so on.
  7. Wacky humor. While I enjoyed some of the stupid humor that was featured in Fallout 2, I know others didn’t
  8. Vaults. While the whole of Fallout universe doesn’t rest on the Vault dwellers, they are interesting.
  9. Using the map for traveling
  10. The high school film intro movie.

10 things from fallout I do NOT want to see return in Fallout 3

  1. Timed main quest.
  2. The location. I am sick of the American southwest. In fact I really don’t want to see another casino.
  3. Brain dead ncps that you can’t control.
  4. A palette that consist of brown, and dark brown.
  5. Swearing. While more of an issue with FO:BOS, too much swearing really puts a damper on enjoyment
  6. Motorized Vehicles. They don’t work, too goofy for the setting.
  7. The brotherhood of steel. I’m rather sick of that group
  8. Item interface. It just wasn’t very smooth and towards the end, going through everything got to be a real chore.
  9. Too many pop culture refs. One or two are fine but Monty Python and Doc Who jokes really take me out of the game.
  10. Bugs, game stopping bugs.

10 things that weren’t in Fallout that I would like to see in Fallout 3

  1. A 3d engine. One that would use modern 3d cards (pixel shaders) as well would be nice.
  2. A somewhat more serious use of religion.
  3. In story mutations of characters. Just another way to customize your character and party
  4. A city. A real city. Not a few blocks with 2 story huts. Even if its just rubble we should see something of large scale urbanization left behind.
  5. In the same vain, buildings should be laid out in a more realistic fashion.
  6. Really futuristic weapons and technology. While everything is retro future, some technology to the players should be down right alien
  7. A larger time scale. Often rpgs are set within about a year time frame. I like to see a longer time progression. Say 30 years. Really live a characters life. I realize that makes the world difficult because you have to age the world along with the player character. You could get around that by having the character age when traveling long distances, thus making going back not an option.
  8. A much larger variety of animals to meet and kill.
  9. A more interactive environment. The items of fallout where pretty much limited to path blocking obstacles and storage cabinets. Destructible environments would be cool, but that could get messy and make testing really difficult.
  10. The ability to play as something other than human.

10 things not related at all that I don’t want to see.

  1. Diablo style combat
  2. limited saves. There shall be Nooooooo traveling to a save point, or worse, collect save crystals.
  3. Magic, alchemy, character classes or anything that takes Fallout to the realm of fantasy. Maybe some fantasy characters would be ok (after all, maybe something could mutate into a creature not unlike an orc or a dragon) but lets just avoid the genre as much as possible
  4. Multiplayer. I’m the hero, its my story.
  5. A 6 cd install. DVD rom drives cost $30. There is no excuse not to use the DVD format.
  6. Any Japanese RPG like story line featuring a cast of young kids saving the world
  7. Aliens. Universe is too rich to get into those.
  8. a console only version or worse, a lame console port to the pc.
  9. Women with impossible size boobs with hardly any clothes running into combat
  10. So called fallout “fans” whining about a game they haven’t played
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My post was missing a “?” at the end of that last sentence. :) I fully agree that the setting and gameplay are far more important than the camera, although it does have some impact on gameplay. I have accepted 1st-person and realtime, although I would much prefer turn-based. SPECIAL can be improved but only tweaks, please - don’t replace it wholesale.

Getting the setting and dialogue right and making sure the stats do impact the gameplay are the important things. Some of Pete’s lines might be a bit throw away, so I don’t want to put too much emphasis on some off the cuff remark but if you say “we’ll stick to 1st-person because we’re good at it”, then it’s valid to ask “so, can you do good dialogue?”, because I haven’t seen much evidence of that.

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You’re crazy, the ending to Bloodlines was awesome.

The last portion of the game was all combat with respawning enemies. No alternate routes to accomplish the goal. It felt rushed and was completely jarring in comparison to the first half of the game. I did like the ending of the story.

Thats where I differ from the codex crowd. I think perspective and a single game mechanic is seperate and less important than setting and story.

Are you saying “the codex crowd” thinks the mechanics/perspective are more important than the setting and story? I doubt it.

. Turn based combat. While I would hate to see a real time combat engine in the same vain as Diablo, I don’t need turn base gaming. I use to be a turn based only junkie. Partly because I am disabled (paralyzed on the right side) and turn based is the easiest system for me to control. However real time combat that can be paused to issue orders at any time is ok. Thanks to Star Wars, Knight of the Old Republic, I can say that other systems are completely playable.

This is blasphemy. Real-time with pause works, but it is a poor substitute to true turn-based combat, which fits Fallout like a glove and allows for the potential for more tactical gameplay devices. With the advent of real-time could also come action elements knowing Bethsoft. I want an RPG! Not an Action RPG. (Oblivion) No compromises!

  1. The Isometric view. Its still a viable view as NWN and dungeon siege has shown but I wouldn’t mind something along the lines of Morrowind or SW:KOTOR.

This goes hand in hand with turn-based combat, as it’s the best possible perspective for that system.

  1. The S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system. Its familiar so it would be nice to see return. It does have its problems and could see it be improved or replaced if the need came.

SPECIAL has already been confirmed. It’s a good “classless” system. (i.e. blows away the one used in Elder Scrolls)

  1. The existing story line. While I would like to see the story line of the Wanderer continued, I don’t think its that important.
  2. Pets and spouses. They were neat, but if they didn’t add to the story, why bother.
  3. Taboo subjects such as drug use, prostitution, slavery, incest and so on.
  4. Wacky humor. While I enjoyed some of the stupid humor that was featured in Fallout 2, I know others didn’t

Good riddance. Pets and spouses though falls under joinable NPCs, which should be an option.

  1. Vaults. While the whole of Fallout universe doesn’t rest on the Vault dwellers, they are interesting.

Vaults are part of the Fallout setting. They should NOT be forgotten since the games based in the US. (a lot of survivers came from the vaults)

  1. The location. I am sick of the American southwest. In fact I really don’t want to see another casino.

This isn’t an issue for me. As long as it’s in the USA, which it is going to be.

  1. A palette that consist of brown, and dark brown.

You must be refering to Morrowind. :D

  1. The brotherhood of steel. I’m rather sick of that group

As long as they’re represented like in Fallout 1, (i.e. an xenophobic organization that keeps to itself) I don’t mind them. (guess where a lot of the HIGH TECH stuff comes from?)

  1. Too many pop culture refs. One or two are fine but Monty Python and Doc Who jokes really take me out of the game.
  2. Bugs, game stopping bugs.

Good Riddance.

  1. A city. A real city. Not a few blocks with 2 story huts. Even if its just rubble we should see something of large scale urbanization left behind.

Agree. I bigger sense of scale would be good.

  1. The ability to play as something other than human.

I’d rather have them spend devoplement focused on humans. Less likely to fuck it up.

The rest I either don’t care enough about, agree with, or don’t think Bethsoft is going to change.

Lastly

  1. So called fallout “fans” whining about a game they haven’t played

It’s Bethsoft

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They do in the case of Fallout. The first thing that gets mentioned is that the game must be both turn-based in combat and isometric in display. If anything appears to threaten these two points, rabid ranting soon begins.

This is blasphemy. Real-time with pause works, but it is a poor substitute to true turn-based combat, which fits Fallout like a glove and allows for the potential for more tactical gameplay devices. With the advent of real-time could also come action elements knowing Bethsoft. I want an RPG! Not an Action RPG. (Oblivion)

Real-time with pause is superior to turn-based in many cases, and inferior in many others. For Fallout I don’t think it particularly matters either way as the combat system is not the strength of the game.

SPECIAL has already been confirmed. It’s a good “classless” system. (i.e. blows away the one used in Elder Scrolls)

It’s unfortunate that they’ve chosen to use SPECIAL, as it has serious balance issues. You can create a combat monster with only a very few levels of experience. It would be much better to use a purely skill based system of some kind. SPECIAL also suffers from the fact that the player becomes invulnerable to anything other than a critical hit, while critical hits are instantly fatal. Thus combat becomes a matter of mowing down countless harmless stormtroopers until suddenly you instantly die and have to reload.

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They do in the case of Fallout. The first thing that gets mentioned is that the game must be both turn-based in combat and isometric in display. If anything appears to threaten these two points, rabid ranting soon begins.

I post there and you are refering to a common misconception only known as The Codex Hivemind™

The big reason why the combat system and prespective are discussed more has more to do with what Bethsoft has said. Refer to Dhruins post. This does not mean the Story and Setting are less important. Bethsoft has yet to say something signifcant enough about them.

Real-time with pause is superior to turn-based in many cases, and inferior in many others. For Fallout I don’t think it particularly matters either way as the combat system is not the strength of the game.

Turn-base is superior when it comes to RPGs as it is the native system. The strength of the game is all its role-playing qualities which includes combat as it is a possible by-product of it and its setting.

It’s unfortunate that they’ve chosen to use SPECIAL, as it has serious balance issues. You can create a combat monster with only a very few levels of experience. It would be much better to use a purely skill based system of some kind. SPECIAL also suffers from the fact that the player becomes invulnerable to anything other than a critical hit, while critical hits are instantly fatal. Thus combat becomes a matter of mowing down countless harmless stormtroopers until suddenly you instantly die and have to reload.

I’m sure this can be tweaked. Call me crazy but I happen to be a fan of the critical hit insta-death chances. Yes, getting shot in the head should more often then not kill you. :D

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Turn-based is only the “native system” because you can’t run a real-time game on your table. Turn-based games have numerous issues with determining the precise action order in a turn, which can never be satisfactorily resolved without moving to a WEGO turn system. Real-time games, on the other hand, don’t have problems like applying damage and killing every single one of your opponents in a single turn before they can attack you.

Also, combat is not just a possible by-product in the Fallout games. It is what you spend the majority of the game doing unless you happen to have already finished the thing once and are trying more esoteric methods to win.

I’m sure this can be tweaked. Call me crazy but I happen to be a fan of the critical hit insta-death chances. Yes, getting shot in the head should more often then not kill you.

If you want to make combat deadly, then SPECIAL is not the system you want. By the end of Fallout 2, the only thing that could hurt you was a critical hit from the big mutant guy or from rapid-fire weapons. Anything else was ignorable. Your main character, on the other hand, never missed hitting anybody right in the eye, no matter how far away you stood or what kind of weapon you were using, as long as that weapon was not rapid-fire.

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I hear this all the time about the “last half” of Bloodlines. It’s bullshit. There are three all-combat zones at the end of Bloodlines, and depending on the ending you’re going to get, you might only have to do two of them. I can understand not liking three linear combat levels in a row, but for Christ’s sake, it takes like an hour. It’s hardly half the game.

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What does that have to do with SPECIAL? In all my plays of the Fallout games, it always seemed to me that that was because, at the end of the game, you’re wearing crazy ass super Power Armor. Combat is plenty deadly before then.

Besides, you’re an unstoppable juggernaut at the end of most RPG’s. Nothing to do with SPECIAL.

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I can understand not liking three linear combat levels in a row, but for Christ’s sake, it takes like an hour. It’s hardly half the game

Yes, it’s not half of the game. But it still sucked. I can’t help not liking it since it could have been done a lot better knowing Troika. I went from playing an action rpg to a pure hack’n’slash/sub-par FPS.

Also note the end of Hollywood with the sewers, and China Town was fairly combat heavy, and every zone after that was pretty much all combat. (The ruined sabbat building, the soceity of leopold) If you didn’t make a COMBAT character you were going to get shithoused!

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I found the sewers to be more of a survival horror section. Maybe it was different for different characters, but my Tremere sure as shit wasn’t cutting a bloody swath through that area, with nothing but the occasional rat to refuel on. Regardless, definitely doable without much combat.

and China Town was fairly combat heavy,

Chinatown had two big fights, IIRC, and one more (Giovanni Reunion) that could be done either way, but did have a boss fight.

and every zone after that was pretty much all combat.

Every zone after that, huh? Hmm, what zones were after that?

  • Mission 16: Riddle Me This (Society of Leopold) - combat.
  • Mission 17: Purging the Sabbat - combat.
  • Mission 18: A Walk In the Park - non-combat.

…and then the two end-boss-area segments, only one of which is mandatory. So you have, after Chinatown, three or four combat-only missions, depending on which ending you chose.

I guess my point is if you didn’t make a COMBAT character you were going to get shithoused!

Considering there is much more and much tougher combat throughout the game than at the very end, I highly doubt that anyone who managed to make it that far had an inordinate amount of trouble with the endgame.

And I didn’t think it sucked. What was the last RPG you played that didn’t have an end boss?