Signs you might be a pathetic fanboy who needs to get a life:
You refer to anything involving changes to your favorite game franchise as “blasphemy.”[/quote]
fluff, a useless quip. It doesn’t matter…what comes after does.
[/quote]
Oh - you mean the part about turn-based combat being more ‘tactical?’
What, pray tell, is tactical about budgeting your movement points so that you can dash out from behind a corner, shoot at the bad guys, and then dash back into the safety of the corner, safe in the knowledge the other baddies won’t have enough movement points to run around the corner and kill you?
I could go on, but won’t. I really enjoyed the Fallouts and Jagged Alliance 2 is probably my favorite game of all time, so it’s not like I’m dead-set against games with turn-based combat but come on – calling it ‘tactical?’ There aren’t many gaming conventions more gamey and easier to exploit than turn-based combat. WEGO allows for much more tactical gameplay, as does pauseable real-time if you ask me.
I could go on, but won’t. I really enjoyed the Fallouts and Jagged Alliance 2 is probably my favorite game of all time, so it’s not like I’m dead-set against games with turn-based combat but come on – calling it ‘tactical?’ There aren’t many gaming conventions more gamey and easier to exploit than turn-based combat. WEGO allows for much more tactical gameplay, as does pauseable real-time if you ask me.
RTwP doesn’t even come close to offering what a turn-based game does. Jagged Alliance 2 has - Movement Types: Walk/Run (walk is more quiet) Stand, Kneel, Prone: cover/accuracy/movement speed. Aiming (using more action points to increase chances to hit) Interrupts! Sequencing. Fire Types: Single, Burst, Auto. Targeting specific parts of the body. All of these can be toggled/used.
Name one RTwP game that has all these options and plays just as well.
Balur’s Gate? Freedom Force? KotOR? Homeworld? I can’t think of one.
Then theres the combat system in ToEE (it’s heaven)
roguefrog- Wait, so not being as good as Jagged Alliance 2(one of the best games of all time) is some kind of definitive proof?
Anyway, this is just another hilarous example of Fallout fanboy insanity. The combat system wasn’t tactical or complex in the Fallout’s. It didn’t have the depth of a JA2 or KoTOR.
Reminds me of that Night Gallery episode where a hippy dies and finds out that Heaven and hell are the exact same place.
Temple of Elemental Evil was horribly dull, buggy, and a huge resource hog. The story sucked. The dialoged sucked. ToEE should be used in classrooms as an example how NOT to make an RPG.
Oh, and there were only 2 fire modes in JA2, auto and semiauto. Different weapons had different burst lengths. I, for one, eagerly await a GTA-camera style Fallout(3rd person suits mixed melee and ranged the best). GUN has a nearly perfect control scheme for Fallout 3.
This paragraph doesn’t make much sense to me. JA2 had all those options which is great, but there’s no reason why all those options can’t be implemented in a pausable real-time game as well with the gameyness of turn-based combat removed.
As an owner of X-Com: Apocalypse, I’d just like to say that I thought it was horrible in real-time mode, and was much better in turn-based. Not to mention that asking for an RPG to have the same tactical depth as a full-blown tactical combat games is a little unfair.
Fallout’s combat engine is flawed - there should be an option to save action points for a snap shot, and the damage mechanics are clearly out of whack when JHP ammo is better on power armoured opponents than AP ammo. Still, it would be a shame to see it die out - TBS games are rarer nowadays, and I really enjoy them.
Anyway looking back I forgot to read some posts. Missed them somehow. Retroactive responses:
Xcom Apocalypse.
crap compared to the turn-based mode so it doesn’t fit the quota “play just as well”
Reminds me of that Night Gallery episode where a hippy dies and finds out that Heaven and hell are the exact same place.
Temple of Elemental Evil was horribly dull, buggy, and a huge resource hog. The story sucked. The dialoged sucked. ToEE should be used in classrooms as an example how NOT to make an RPG.
Don’t get me wrong. ToEE overall was a pretty crappy RPG but it had great implementation of turn-based combat. Easily the best dnd combat in a computer game.
Anyway, this is just another hilarous example of Fallout fanboy insanity. The combat system wasn’t tactical or complex in the Fallout’s. It didn’t have the depth of a JA2 or KoTOR.
Obviously no where near as good as JA2 but better than KotOR, which was basically choose a power/queue attacks and watch your dude lay the smack down. KotOR was never deep because is was mind-numblingly easy. It didn’t really matter what attack I chose. They were all too potent. Just spam any which one for the win!
When did everyone go batshit insane assume I thought Fallouts combat was the best thing ever? I simply perfer turn-base over real-time with pause. TB is the natural system for RPGs seeing how they are based one rules and shouldn’t be drivin by the kinetc/reflex/twitch skills of the user but the stats of the player character.
Well, that would probably be when you said that the combat had to be turn-based and that turn-based combat was always superior to any other kind.
I simply perfer turn-base over real-time with pause. TB is the natural system for RPGs seeing how they are based one rules and shouldn’t be drivin by the kinetc/reflex/twitch skills of the user but the stats of the player character.
Turn-based combat systems are no more the “natural system for RPGs” than any other combat system. They happen to fit with certain previously designed rulesets, but those are hardly the only rulesets that can be used to create a game system. Even so the best combat systems in D&D games to date have been pausable real-time. After all the reflexes and twitch skills of the player do not matter one bit in Baldur’s gate. If you had trouble controlling combat in BG2 then that’s your own fault for not turning on “auto-pause on spell cast”.
Sorry but ToEE is the best and most accurate implementation of dnd-like combat in a computer game. I had no problems playing Baldur’s Gate, Freedom Force, kotOR or any other RTwP game. I just enjoy turn-based games more, and don’t want to see them go.
Well, that would probably be when you said that the combat had to be turn-based and that turn-based combat was always superior to any other kind.
Here is what I originally wrote:
Real-time with pause works, but it is a poor substitute to true turn-based combat, which fits Fallout like a glove and allows for the potential for more tactical gameplay devices. With the advent of real-time could also come action elements knowing Bethsoft. I want an RPG! Not an Action RPG.
Translation: Turn-base > Real-time (my opinion) turn-based has the potential to be more tactical (ala JA2)
I don’t want to see turn-based games “go” either, but there’s really little chance of that happening. Turn-based games haven’t really become any less common in the past 15 years.
[quote]Real-time with pause works, but it is a poor substitute to true turn-based combat, which fits Fallout like a glove and allows for the potential for more tactical gameplay devices. With the advent of real-time could also come action elements knowing Bethsoft. I want an RPG! Not an Action RPG.
Translation: Turn-base > Real-time (my opinion) turn-based has the potential to be more tactical (ala JA2) [/quote]
It’s not true however, since turn-based games have serious limitations that must be dealt with to create a proper tactical simulation. Unless your RPG combat system is as complicated as a full squad based tactical combat game, you’re probably better off going to a real-time system of some kind. Gamey tactics are to be avoided at all costs.
It’s not true however, since turn-based games have serious limitations that must be dealt with to create a proper tactical simulation.
Such as?
Unless your RPG combat system is as complicated as a full squad based tactical combat game, you’re probably better off going to a real-time system of some kind.
Theres no reason why a RPGs combat system can’t be more like a tactical game like JA2. That easily trumphs any real-time system in an RPG. The hight of RTwP is what? Baldur’s Gate II?
Gamey tactics are to be avoided at all costs.
sure :wink:
Also note that as far as RPGs go, a real-time system may include action elements while in a turn-based system there isn’t much room for it. Thats why I perfer the latter. RPGs have been getting more and more action oriented.
roguefrog, are you retarded or just a troll? Because if you took the time to read the past several posts (mine included) you’d find answers to your ‘questions,’ and explanation of why turn-based does not inherently lend itself to tactical decision making and gameplay.
Fallout: Tactics had all those options. It wasn’t RTwP (and I hate RTwP with a passion, btw), but it wasn’t exactly turn-based either.
But I’m lost here, is this argument about whether Fallout 3 should be turn-based or RTwP? Because if it’s RTwP, the world is going to drown in my tears.
