Again, if you look at the study I cited above there is a clear line between cartoon (or 3D avatars that are nowhere near photorealistic) violence and actual filmed, real violence involving actual humans.
I have to go with, “better safe than sorry”. I may be more cautious than a lot of people about exposing my son to more mature content, like violence. I think he was 5 or 6 before I got him some of the LEGO games because one of the main points was violence - even if highly unrealistic LEGO violence. I admit that may be a bit on the extreme side, but I just feel that the potential risks for playing violent games at a young age are much greater then the risks of sheltering him from such games.
At the age of 9, I’m OK with my son playing games that have unrealistic violence. I’m not comfortable with letting him play games where he is killing people. Jumping on some monsters head to kill him - OK. I’d not be comfortable with him watching me play Red Dead Redemption. It’s definitely better that he is experiencing the game with you @wumpus than on his own, and I agree that probably no harm is done - but I just don’t see the point to exposing a kid to that stuff earlier then necessary. That being said, you’re the parent and know him the best - but even you seem to have some reservations since you created this thread. I’d go with better safe then sorry.
I have two daughters, ages 5 and 3. I play games with them; Minecraft, Spelunky, Lego games. Sure, they’re cartoony, but they raise questions that conflict with my girls’ mental models and make them think and worry. Are there really spiders that big? What will happen in my room if I don’t have a light on at night? And so on. They’ve seen some games for older people, but few.
I guess what I’ve realized is that there’s something really special to the unfettered mind. Small ideas are amplified by their imaginations and they spend hours playing at made up games, running around the house and yard, incorporating stuff from those games into their play. That’s how I decide how to pace their exposure. When the elements from games and TV dominate their free play, then those are scaled back until their games are dominated again by creations of their own imaginations.
The main reason I don’t want my kids playing M games is because they neither need nor have to play them to fulfill the cravings of their imaginations. They would love to wander the world of The Witcher 3, but they don’t need the gory or adult parts. They could live in the details of the flora and non aggressive fauna, but something as simple as an attacking wolf would set in their minds a notion that such a thing may happen to them - or is even a thing. They don’t need that now. I personally feel their minds will grow in a more robust manner if they are afforded years of innocent/ignorant play. They’re younger, of course, but I will continue to closely monitor the balance of their play in that manner. I feel lucky that they can entertain themselves for hours on end with no devices, TV, or external prompting. They’ll chase butterflies, draw, eat tomatoes in the garden, hide in the bushes, look for snakes, etc… all day long. Then, at night, for ~15 minutes after bath time, we play games.
I know that will change. For now, though, I’m content to let them wander their G-rated world, with the occasional guided tour into games that are slightly more intense.
One time my (at the time) eight year old daughter wandered into the room while I was playing GTAV. So I made it family friendly by turning down the volume (no music, but then no profanity), driving around Los Santos, playing golf and tennis, riding a rollercoaster and taking selfies. Then she went back to doing something else. My daughter nowadays criticizes me for how much swearing and shooting is in most of my games compared to stuff she likes (Minecraft, Roblox). I stole a car in Sleeping Dogs and she lectured me about it.
Though, my five year old son has been a lot more aggro lately when I played more games around them. I might have to tone down on what he’s exposed to by going back to “play games after they go to bed” mode.
I think active/involved parents is the important thing. But I also admit to snap judgments like when I heard the dad of one of my daughter’s classmates say he lets his son play Gears, or when she signs online and I see that one of her friends is playing Black Ops III.
Oddly enough, I also read Lord Foul’s Bane in grade 4 or 5, though it wasn’t my first “long” book. It was in the library of my grade school, if you can believe it. Later I read that book as part of a nontechnical elective in college, and there were people in that class saying they couldn’t finish it because it was too dark.
My parents pretty much let me read and see what I wanted from when I was 9 or so. The only movie I saw when I was young that gave me nightmares was Cronenberg’s remake of The Fly. Normally the stuff just rolls off me, but the body horror hit a vulnerable spot. Though the doctors at the mental hospital where I live say it probably didn’t have any long-term effects…
[quote=“wumpus, post:1, topic:120396”]
Anyway, I feel a little bad about this because I don’t want to rush his childhood or anything, but RDR is so damn great and I want to play through it with my son – I want him to have that experience with me, and be a part of these next-gen open world games that are looming on the horizon.[/quote]
I would approach this the same way I approached films - If you map out your child’s life in a timeline, you have to stay ahead of the curve…so the child must be adjusted to PG-13 before 13, R before 17, and X? well…R is enough.
But games are very similar. You cannot pretend he will not be exposed to the language and concepts you mention. And with you ‘introducing’ them, you are able to control his reaction by (your reaction) your explanation of what it is and why it is there. I often said things like - “They put that in there because they want to shock people” or “because some people believe this makes it better, even though it doesn’t” type of thing. Discussions of reality vs obvious fantasy. And this all leads to a discussion about what is appropriate and when. It is surprisingly successful. When they hit middle school/high school, they see how their peers foolishly react to such stimulus, but your child is inoculated. My man, you are instilling your values to your child. If you play these things, what are your thoughts on them when they occur. Why are they there? Are they appropriate in real life? Share. Comment. Keep it up.
All M-rated games aren’t equal. The first m-rated title I let my son play was Brutal Legend, which has bleeps for language, censoring for blood, and was overall wildly fantastical.
I, personally would never have let them play anything by Rockstar because of their emphasis on realism. But, at least you are doing it with them and can talk about aspects of it. Heck, he’s twenty now and asked if I minded if he picked up GTA V to play with his friends.
This isn’t a particularly accurate reading of that paper. The paper acknowledges that the more realistic the violence portrayed, the more likely it is to provoke increased aggression in play following the viewing. Humorous violence in cartoons is the least likely to promote aggressive behavior. The more realistic the details of the violence portrayed (realistic injury, graphic damage, realistic blood, etc.) the more likely it is to promote aggression.
So it’s a continuum. While Looney Tunes is extremely violent, the violence is humorous, and not realistically portrayed, so it’s very low impact. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is also low impact because while the violence is probably marginally more realistic, the characters, as talking mutated animals, are clearly unlike real people. GI Joe has more realistic people and is not humorous in intent, but has very unrealistic, bloodless violence, moderating the impact. RDR may not be photorealistic, but it has much more realistic people in realistic situations committing acts of graphic, bloody violence. Is playing RDR with your kids better for them than showing them Bone Tomahawk, or playing GTA V? Sure, but that paper doesn’t in any way suggest that Red Dead Redemption won’t impact your kids, just that there are other things that would influence them more.
(On the flip side, the paper also acknowledges that mediation by parents, explaining that these acts aren’t okay in real life, that this is just a story, etc., can have a positive, moderating influence, though that becomes less effective as children grow older.)
I’d say that wumpus is a bad parent according to the letter of the law but he also seems to be a good parent according to the spirit of the law.
I’m just glad that I had a daughter who was perfectly happy playing Barbie and Sesame Street shovelware.
I’d say here a good parent for spending time with his kids, and actually thinking about whether he’s doing the right thing.
There are literally hundreds of kid-appropriate games that could be played with a 1st or 2nd grade that would provide an amazing father-son experience. Why pick this one? It’s simply some sort of wish fulfillment. He wants his son to enjoy a game that he found incredible but it’s way too early for his son to have that experience. It won’t mean nearly the same thing to a little kid that it would to an actual adult.
Yes, spending time with your kids is the right thing to do. But this just makes no sense, sorry.
I’m pretty much in agreement with jpinard. There are all kinds of guide-lines in life like M-ratings which either cater to a bog standard or lowest common denominator. That you are there with your child and able to gauge their interest or discomfort, to answer their questions and help give it an appropriate context is by far the most important part. I believe that as a father you would know if this were inappropriate to your child and would discontinue it. The fact that it seems to be going well speaks volumes.
Generally speaking, would I “recommend” an M-rated title that I’m familiar with to a parent and child that I am not familiar with; no, I would not. This is not that.
Specifically have I played M-rated games with my young children; yes, I have. They are now 16 and 20. They blame their phobias and insecurities on the horror movies I watched with them and not the video games i played with them. :-)
I’m a gamer and a parent. I’ve struggled with @Wumpus’ issue for years; recently, I blogged about this ongoing struggle.
My son is currently 18, but back when he was 6, the brand new game on the block was Doom 3. I wanted desperately to share it with him, but at the same time, knew he was far too young to handle the extreme amounts of gratuitous blood, violence, and gore within.
And yet, I allowed this wide-eyed, six year old up onto my lap as I nervously skulked through its nightmarish first levels wondering when I was going to regret it. It didn’t take long. The “berzerk” power-up produced a visual effect of traveling through an intestine while the player screamed in agony. I glanced down at my son, “You OK there, buddy?”
He said nothing, and slowly put his head down on the desk.
I know now what Boris Karloff meant when he said the Grinch’s heart was two sizes too small, because I definitely felt mine shrink that day.
~~
My strategy as a gamer-parent has been an elaboration on what @Wumpus (and many of you) have been talking about – the “be sure to discuss the game with your kids” strategy, but with a bit of reverse psychology mixed in for good measure. Let’s call it the “Broader Conversation” strategy. It goes a little something like this:
1 Don’t Stop At “It’s Not Real” - Pull Everything Apart
My kids and I discuss what goes into the making of video games: storyboard artists, graphic designers, animators, programmers, artificial intelligence…Hell, even the infrastructure of online games’ server farms is fair game. Seeing working game code or an animator’s YouTube channel demonstrating rigging and uv texture mapping doesn’t just make it easier for kids to separate fantasy from reality, it gives them the concrete tools to do so.
2 Loop Them In On Current Events…Even Tragedy
Initially this may sound dark and depressing; stay with me on this. Muggle media tends to focus on the sensationalist side of video game news, as we all know, and get many facts wrong or are biased in some sadly uninformed way.
As you share gaming with your kids (and they get a little older than 6), loop them in! Read them the news story. Ask their opinion. Share your (presumably) game-based insight. If a school shooting happens and some group demands a violent video game be blamed, ask your kids why they think is. It isn’t often exciting (politics, religion, psychological bias), but you know your kids – you know how you can shorten in/simplify it for them. Keep it light, but remember the seriousness of the claims the media makes.
Whenever a kid gets raked across the coals for completely unfounded threats they’ve made in-game, talk to your kids about perception, social responsibility, how people can (or choose to) misinterpret words. The more your kids are involved in the big picture of video gaming and the role it plays in our lives, the more personal experience they’ll have when it comes time to make a judgement call on their own. I feel that sharing stories like this with my son have given him a broader, more mature perspective on anger management and issues involving our penal system…as opposed to just toxicity in gaming and “why it is bad.”
This can also help him/her develop a good sense of humor about some tough issues happening in the world (not just in violent video games), which is something a lot of kids could benefit from.
3 Stick to the Family Game Room
In order to be sure to stay on top of points 1 and 2 above, you absolutely must have a family game room. As they move off of your lap and across the table to their own laptop, be actively with them, playing, participating (even in an ancillary format). Allowing them freedom to grow and choose their own way, while still being in the room to discuss what’s right and wrong is vitally important. Even now, my son wants a computer in his own room, and I insist he remains in the family computer room (he gets much more flexibility with computer hours than other kids his age). This way, you stay on top of any…side-effects…that might emerge during gaming sessions.
The family game room also allows you to solve that problem of “treating them like an adult” – it gives them agency to choose what they want to do, but you’re still keeping a eye (or ear) on things…and do so. Get up from your game, check on them, ask questions, get them chatting about it, let them show you some stuff, too.
~~
This has been my strategy. So far, no problems with guns, violent behavior, poor grades, antisocial behavior, drugs, or promiscuity – he’s turned out to be a good kid with semi-better-than-average grades (good in some things, not great in others), but is polite, respectful, appropriate…and most of all, self-aware.
…and we both despise keyboard turners.
I’m the least qualified guy in the world to give parenting advice, but weirdly enough, I still have strong opinions on the subject of kids and content. There’s a scene in a TV show called Stranger Things where a mother is trying to cheer up her dejected 10-year-old. “We can rent whatever movie you want tonight,” she says to him in the same tone of voice a younger child would be promised ice cream. “It can even be R-rated,” she adds. I immediately liked her less.
Anyway, I’m enjoying the perspectives in this thread. Although I think we should all have some sort of symbol on our post indicating whether or not we’re parents. A handy button should be available to toggle off the comments from those of us we aren’t parents. :)
You misspelled “made awesome”.
-Tom, who saw waaay too many movies way too early
I saw a lot of stuff I shouldn’t have at a young age (hooray for premium cable and uninvolved parents!) but the only thing I genuinely regret was seeing Killer Klowns from Outer Space at age 7. That gave me nightmares seemingly every night for a good two or three years.
I completely agree about scary movies at a young age. I myself have some scars, very similar to what’s described by others in this topic. However, RDR is not a horror game, and I do think there is a clear difference between realistic, filmed horror violence with human actors and the open world gameplay and missions of RDR.
My extremely humble idea (@geggis I am not)
As my son is 2, and I don’t go for too many of the more violent games myself, it’s not much of an issue. Him watching me play Kerbal, or Pinball, EU IV, or Rebel Galaxy? No real hesitation, honestly. I’m sure I’ll deal with it soon enough, but for now, not so much. I just make sure I play Tomb Raider or Assassins Creed after he goes to bed.
But I am a firm believer in leaving it to the judgement of an informed parent. @wumpus is that. While we may not agree with his assessment, there is no arguing he is not aware of exactly the content. So given that would I play the same game with a child of that same age? No, probably not. But if he wants to deal with the discussions well that’s on him.
I hadn’t really intended to reply to this thread because who the hell am I to tell another person how to raise their kids? But I’ll throw in with my info, why not. I have two kids, a 4-year-old son and a daughter that’s almost 2. My son enjoys video gaming as far as he is able to, so basically 2D stuff that doesn’t have complicated controls. He’s kind of ok at Zuma, for instance, until he loses interest (which doesn’t take long). But he really loves playing Lovers in a Dangerous Spacetime with me, where we can hop between stations on the spaceship as we float around looking for bunnies to rescue. He’s always asking me to play a level of the “bunny game” with him. And while it does involve a little shooty pew-pew with lasers and such, it’s a pretty bloodless matter and since the goal is ultimately to save your friends, his mom and I are ok with it.
I really don’t see myself playing M-rated games with him for a long time. Partly because my wife would absolutely kick my ass and partly because I just don’t want him getting into that stuff until I think he’s ready. Not sure when that day will come but certainly no time soon.
I too was traumatized by horror movies but not because I was necessarily dragged to them - I remember being freaked out by movie trailers you could see on TV or in front of other movies you might have gone to see. I distinctly remember the trailer for The Shining, with the opening of a set of elevator doors unleashing a river of blood. I remember the trailer for It’s Alive, a trifling little film, but the rotating baby’s crib slowly revealing a claw draped over the edge giving me nightmares. The 70s were weird.
I would say there it is different when you control the character as opposed to a purely “out of body” entertainment experience. And no, people who let 7 year olds watch the average violent R rated movie are cads.
When my daughter was probably 7 she loved to watch me play PC games. But I mostly played games like Kings Quest 7, Baldurs Gate or IceWind Dale back then. The violence was on a different level. I used to play Medal of Honor and even that was not graphic compared to today’s games.
In the last few years we have played many games co-op (gears of War, Borderlands, Halo) that I may not have wanted to play with her when she was 7. By the way, the girl is 23 now. :)
Eh…
As long as you are there to contextualize everything.
I remember being under 10 years old, pretty much all we did was play “guns” and “gi-joe” running around and fake shooting eachother all over the neighborhood. So… I doubt games are much more violent than that.
I saw Commando at a super young age, and I think my life was better for it. It is one of the greatest action movies ever made. Also… that movie is super violent… but kind of comically so. A lot of it flew over my head, I don’t remember being scarred at all from that one… even the part with the saw blades and that guy’s arm.
I also saw Alien at too young an age, and it gave me the heebie jeebies. But… that is all part of being a kid right? I cherish the fact that I had parents that were very much around all of the time, but that were not super tight lidded on age restriction things. Things like that didn’t scar me for life or anything, they are games and movies, just make believe. I think kids can figure that much out. Though.it was terrifying to go out into the garage to empty the garbage can at night after seeing Ghostbusters. I think people are too afraid of having their children live through bad experiences, but that is part of living right?
TLDR, you know your own kids, you are around to answer questions/contextualize, you’ll be fine.