Immigration in the US

Politics and religion
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Wahoo, if by “left” you mean liberals and Democrats, I’m not sure where the open borders assumption comes from. It is true that most liberals don’t want to punish the unauthorized immigrants already here, but I believe most of us feel that we do need to enforce our immigration laws, but that the focus needs to be on the employer level rather than at the border.

Illegal employment, which results from lax enforcement of our labor and employment laws (for example, under current law, employers are not required to electronically verify Social Security numbers, which is completely ridiculous) is the economic engine that drives this entire illegal immigration train.

I understand that the right is leery of the “let’s legalize those already here and crack down on illegal employment to reduce the underlying economic incentive” concept b/c that’s what the 80s bill was, and it failed.

But the 80s bill failed b/c the actual on-the-ground enforcement at the employer level was laughable and ridiculous. Not enough immigration agents assigned to employer checks compared to the number of jobs in the country, huge loopholes in the law like lack of e-verify and no requirement for employers to keep copies of employment documents, no issuance of “no match” letters by the federal government when an employer submits tax info with a bad SS#, etc. etc.

As just one example of the loopholes in that 80s law, look at the law about copying employment eligibility documents (mostly Social Security cards). The law regarding the I-9 form requires employers to “check” the SS card or other proof of legal eligibility to work, but the law does not require the employer to actually keep a copy. When Immigration audits the employer, and the employer has no copy of the SS Card to prove they checked it, the government is not allowed to demand a copy or presume there is no proof. Just imagine if this level of enforcement applied to taxes. No receipts for your deductions??? NO PROBLEM!!!

The 80s law sounded good on paper but was laughably weak in reality. I do understand why the right feels burned by that but IMO the solution is to put in place actual effective enforcement. For example, with modern technology, E-Verify would go a long way to reducing illegal employment which in turn would reduce illegal immigration.

My view is that we need to do and at the same time legalize the status of those already here. You have to do both.

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The fundamental problem of Republicans is that they don’t want enforcement of laws because that requires funding and accepting a regime of bureaucracy which they already consider a burdensome waste of resources. So any system that requires more enforcement is going to be stillborn because while they want enforcement on paper they don’t want to actually pay for it.

Cornyn’s big “gun bill” that he has been trying to pass the last couple of days does nothing but hold government agencies responsible for… i guess, not doing their job correctly? And they still can’t pass this nonsense bill. Blaming government is so baked into their DNA it’s all they can do.

284

Except Obama deported a record number of people, and even after the economy had recovered to pre recession levels in the 2013-2016 term, the number of illegal immigrants in the US continued to decline.

If that isn’t due to policy decisions I don’t know what else it could be. ICE was just more motivated working for Obama than for Bush?

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Be careful giving too much credit or blame to presidents. Illegal Immigration dropped significantly when Trump first took office. He of course took credit, although the number has returned back up to 2016 levels this year.
His support said it was a direct result of his tough talk on illegal immigration. But realistically, it is a 3 to 12 month journey (and sometimes longer) from El Salvador to the USA. It is silly to think that Trump’s speech in the early spring of 2016, would have any impact on a El Salvadorian family face death threats decision to seek refuge in the US.

I think American make mistake but assuming everything that happens in this country is primarily the result of government action or inaction. In particular, I suspect that much of illegal immigration can be explained by the rise (and periodic fall) of violence in Central America, and the economy in those countries. In the case of Mexico I suspect that relative economic prosperity between the countries is every bit as important as government actions.

There is a supply and demand for illegal immigration. Short of active intervention in central American (not necessarily troops) there is very little the US can do to affect the supply of illegal immigrants.

Post 9/11 we have been more active in patrol our borders and deporting folks. But as Sharpe points out if we were really serious about reducing the demand for illegal immigrants, we’d be really cracking down on employers

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Pretty much. But no one has any interest in doing that.

Even at my most conservative I knew this was the solution. My home town had a chicken factory that got busted by ICE every couple of years. But said factory never closed. I mean my hometown was like… 99% white people. There was literally a town black guy for a while there. And they’d bring in about a hundred Central Americans that don’t/barely speak English and get away with it for a couple of years before someone did anything. Then they’d just do it again.

288

Good post.

289

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/03/20/595228105/kiss-off-youre-irish-in-experiment-detroit-pub-bans-st-patricks-day-revelers

290

It was also a lesson in history that he wasn’t too familiar with himself — that Irish immigrants were frequently maligned by Americans for being dirty, dishonest and drunk.

I thought this was common knowledge actually. There are several immigrant groups that experienced this actually.

edit: he covered the second part later

“The way their ancestors suffered becomes a point of pride, so we’re getting people who are sharing stories — not just Irish, but Germans, Italians and others. It’s about starting a conversation.”

291

While discussions of Minstrel shows often focus on the representation of African Americans, they featured a lot of very generic vaudeville-style broad racial comedy.

The Irish were drunk and mean, and Germans were drunk and jolly.

It’s probably time to mention “whiteness” as a social construct, and the gradually widening conception of whiteness over time (see: Irish, Italians, slavs).

292

I hope the old guy in the article sees this article later. The guy made it sound like he really took it hard. I can relate to that. That feeling of rejection of a person, it’s scaring. It’s not something you ever forget. And yeah, there are large groups of what we would mostly just call white people today who were soundly rejected when their ancestors came over. It didn’t seem to stop some of those groups from rejecting others though, then and now.

293

Not immigration, but overt xenophobia… against American citizens.

294

Ah, yes, because it takes the guy with one of the thickest southern accents I’ve heard since Forrest Gump to accurately declare how refreshing non-accented English can be.

295

I’d take it as more of a joke if he and his comrades weren’t actively trying to kill people with healthcare, ban all dark folks, etc.

296

This country has become so cruel. I hate what its become:

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Trump Tweetrage coming in 5,4,3…

299

On the topic of how the Right’s border obsession is security theater, and the true way to reduce illegal immigration is with internal US enforcement, here’s an article about undocumented immigrants paying taxes . According to that article, the 2015 data shows the IRS receiving 4.4 million tax returns from people without valid Social Security numbers. And those people paid $23.6 Billion in taxes that year. In addition to that, there are a lot of undocumented workers who don’t file returns themselves, but substantial taxes are withheld by their employers.

Think about that: 4.4 million tax returns which are highly indicative that illegal employment is occurring, and the federal government does… nothing.

Here’s a quote from the article giving an example of how this works:

" The 36-year-old from El Salvador is undocumented, and she told me that she made up the Social Security number on the W-2 form because she doesn’t have one. Her employer never asked for identification to verify it, she says. Instead, she has an Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN), created by the IRS in 1996 so people who aren’t allowed to work in the United States could still file taxes on any income they earned. (The IRS does not share ITIN information with immigration authorities.)"

I understand why the IRS as an individual department would do this: if they reported this info to ICE they would lose out on most or all of the $23.6 Billion in taxes. But from an overall federal enforcement rule of law standpoint, this is completely insane. The IRS actually has a formal procedure designed to keep the rest of the federal government from enforcing the law.

And that’s just one of many loopholes regarding illegal employment written into our laws and regulations by legislators beholden to low wage employers over the decades.

Meanwhile, the Right continues to yell about an invasion (by “those people” of course.)

(Note: I don’t support cranking up enforcement on illegal employment by itself; it has to be coupled with a path to citizenship for the people who’ve been living here for years. However, screaming about “THE BORDER” without talking about employer level enforcement is foolish and misguided.)

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Here’s an idea: You live here, you pay taxes, you’re not a felon, you want to be a citizen? Congrats, you’re a citizen. Welcome to America.

I could be talked into a waiting period of a few years of actual employment of some kind (aka paying taxes, and with credit for time served) before you’re eligible for whatever social programs if it’s truly the budgetocalypse, but my guess is that it’s not and that bringing that part of the shadow economy into the loving embrace of the bureaucracy will only have positive effects.

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My only restriction would be that there needs to be some limitation on people getting financial aid from the government.

Currently, the system limits your ability to receive such aid until you are a citizen, meaning that folks who come here must work and add value to the society. This is a good thing.

I’m in favor of everyone being able to go through the process to become a citizen, but I’d still suggest that it require a dedication of 7 years.