Is President Bush a hypocrite and a pu**y?

[i]-Ok… let’s see who has the most nuclear weapons?

America = 10,000 (+)
Iraq = maybe 1… probably 0.[/i]

Hopefully zero. Presumably zero. The point, though, is that Iraq is a lot more likely to use a nuclear weapon, just as it used chemical weapons on the Kurds (definitely) and the US (probably). If Iraq had a nuclear weapon, there is a substantial chance that they would either A) detonate it inside Israel; or B) sell it to terrorists who would detonate it inside the United States. The US, by contrast, has had chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons for 50 years and has only used them once, in an extreme case of self-defense. In other words, despite the numerical disparity, the US has a much better track record. And is also not led by an madman.


Let’s be real… If Saddam had a nuclear weapon, what kind of threat would he pose to America? None… He would get wipped off the face of the earth.

Even if Hussein were sane – and he is not – this is not true. It is possible he could sell the weapon to terrorists and not have it traced to him. Even if it were traced to him, he could go into hiding and possibly survive. To say nothing of the fact that the US is not the only country he threatens – he also threatens Israel.

And, of course, there’s always the fact that he’s insane and might use a nuclear weapon even though it meant his own eventual death. Do you think he would have survived if he had succeeded in his plan to assassinate President Bush? Probably not. He tried to do it anyway.

And… Do we really have room to talk since we could kill the planet 10 times over.

What the hell kind of argument is that? Just because we have nuclear weapons, we have to let any insane dictator have them too? Give me a break.

[i]Ok… Let’s take a look at who has actaully used a nuclear weapon against a country.

America = 2 times against Japan. Millions of people have died.
Iraq = 0! [/i]

Yeah. America used a nuclear weapon two times against Japan – which had started a war of aggression with a cowardly attack on Pearl Harbor, which had sworn to destroy its enemies at any cost, which was running one of the most oppressive regimes (against foreigners) of anyone out there – and that’s a bold statement in the 1940s. America warned Japan that we would use nukes if they didn’t surrender. They decided not to (for a while). As others have pointed out, hundreds of thousands more probably would have died in a conventional invasion.

By contrast, Iraq used its weapons of mass destruction against its own citizens, who could barely be considered armed and wanted little more than the freedom to express their political ideas.

1) North Korea is much more capable of developing a nuclear weapon than Iraq, but yet Bush has handled the situation with kids gloves.

NK is a totally different situation, for reasons others have already posted. There is a good chance that diplomacy can solve that situation. There is no chance that diplomacy will succeed in Iraq, no matter what fucking France thinks. Although NK has now had two less-than-sane leaders, they are not insane in the “I want to kill bajillions of people if I only had the means to do so” way that Saddam Hussein is insane.

North Korea is one of the most militarized countries int he world with an army of a million men.

NK can barely keep its subs from smashing into the beach. Although they have a very large army and I don’t doubt a war would cause significant South Korean casualties, the Americans could minimize risk to themselves through the use of technologically advanced weapons. Or, you know, aircraft. A war with NK would be incredibly costly, and would have to either be very long or incur significant American casualties.

But to say that Bush doesn’t want to attack because we would get our ass kicked too much is probably not true. It’s more likely that he won’t attack because A) Americans probably wouldn’t stand for it, because everyone (except you, of course) realizes that NK is not nearly as bad as Iraq; and B) our staunch South Korean allies would be plunged into “a sea of fire,” as Kim Jong Il likes to put it.

Uh, that’s a rather big “only.” And the US has been overwhelmingly pro-Israel since the early days of the Johnson administration. Before that, Israel’s biggest patron was France, and the Americans tried to walk a line between Arab and Jew. Didn’t work, for a lot of reasons, but one of the biggies was Nasser playing the US and USSR against each other and then lining up with the Soviets when the Americans didn’t give enough cash and technical support for the Aswan Dam.

That’s not the case. Cleary, Israeli massacres have taken place in the past and are still ongoing today. The invasion of Lebanon featured numerous Israeli war crimes against innocent refugees on a scale equivalent to what people from Croatia and Serbia are being prosecuted for today. No, that doesn’t justify a Palestinian walking into a town and gunning down little children. But the bloodshed is shared here. And keeping the Palestinian populace cooped up in impoverished bantustans is only going to make the problem worse.

Now you’re just being fucking stupid. I understand the US’s decision to tighten up the borders, but the Bush administration is making the country a hostile place for anyone with the wrong color of skin right now. And right now US Immigration is detaining visitors who were born in a select number of Islamic Middle Eastern countries, simply because they were born in those nations. It’s becoming a big issue, especially for citizens of Western countries like Canada. People who have been Canadian citizens for three and four decades are getting taken aside at the border and grilled for hours just because their parents had the gall to be born in Damascus. So don’t tell me that the US is the “most open and free society that the world has ever seen.” The US is a lot of great things, but it has never, ever been that.

Sigh. Okay, you want to crack down on the Mexican border? Be my guest. But there is no problem with the Canadian border. We may not be perfect with keeping undesirables out of the country, either, but the US has a far, far worse record. Every one of the 9/11 hijackers entered the US from overseas. You want to bitch to somebody, bitch to Germany, or even the UK. The main Al Qaeda cells that launched the 9/11 attacks and later events like the Richard Reid shoebombing came from Hamburg and London, not Ottawa or Montreal. Canada is not being used as some kind of stopover destination, because it’s easier to get in here and then sneak across the border into the US.

And you know that settlers essentially occupied that land in the postwar era? And used terrorist strikes to scare away the British? The Zionists were the first ones to use organized violence in the region. I’m not excusing what the Palestinians have done since that time, but the Jewish settlers started with violent tactics very early on, with little or no provocation. Some of the Jewish terror attacks were pretty horrific. You want to really understand the history, you’ll realize that blood is on both hands. Israel has to come to terms with its history, just as the Palestinians do.

Jeff, with all due respect, you’re just contributing to the nonsense here. First of all, it’s Palestinian. With an “E.” And they lived there for many, many centuries. The region was predominantly Arab when the Romans first arrived, so it’s not like the Palestinians just showed up. Many of the families evicted in 1948 lived on family farms that dated back centuries. The people were well established there. No, there isn’t a Palestinian language. But there isn’t an American language either, and that doesn’t dismiss the legitimacy of America.

Anyhow, if you want to depict the Palestinians as somehow not being entitled to their land because other people were there originally, many centuries ago (and that’s not a given, as much archaeological research has cast doubts on Israeli claims to a large region), I hope you’re ready to give your house to the local native tribe. And give most of the US Southwest back to Mexico. And apologize to the Serbs for trying to evict those Johnny-come-lately Turks. Once you start down this path, it never ends. People have to come to terms with history, not relive it constrantly and seek redress for past wrongs. That’s what started this whole mess in the first place; that’s what fuels it today.

‘Israel has to come to terms with its history, just as the Palestinians do.’

Agreed; the only plausible long-term solution is two states.

Israel has to get its settlers out of the occupied territories before I’ll have any sympathy for them. That said, I have no sympathy for a Palestinian independence movement willing to attack civilians. If they want support for political change from me, and more importantly, actually want to achieve their goals, they have to start acting like civilized human beings. A peaceful protest movement would result in their own state in under a decade.

"By contrast, Iraq used its weapons of mass destruction against its own citizens, who could barely be considered armed and wanted little more than the freedom to express their political ideas. "

And the Reagan administration didn’t do jack diddly shit about it, they didn’t even address it. Why? Because apparently, Saddam was “friend” instead of “madman” at the time. Cheney certainly saw it in his companies’ (Halliburton) best interests to do business with a government run by someone who’s “insane” back in 1998. It’s ALL about politics about special interest. The only reason diplomacy will work with North Korea is because China will make sure it works. No one in the Middle East will (or probably even can) do the same for the United States of America in that region. Not Isreal, not Saudi Arabia, nobody.

Wasn’t England Isreal’s biggest supporter? Didn’t the USA fulfill England’s promise after WWII?

Above is me.

  1. Foreign Affairs Quarterly is hardly “Boy’s Life.” I don’t see the editorial bias.
  2. pointing towards an article in support of an argument is not “rehashing” it.

why don’t you listen to someone who has been in Israel 3 times in the last year, in Pac Rim Muslim areas twice in the past 2 years and I spend my day talking to people from foreign countries. I was in Italy on Sept 11 last year and was stuck over there for 13 days afterward. I was exposed to more even handed reporting then we get here in the States.

Does the “g” in graller stand for globetrotter? If by even-handed reporting, you mean blaming US policies for the wholesale murder of civilians, I would rather live without it.

I love this country, I love living here, I like my job, I like our form of government and the beliefs it is based on.

I never said you didn’t. I never even implied it.

The way the current administration is steering this country frightens me. The nice thing is here, today, I am entitled to that opinion and the right to express it.

Yes. You are.
Back to the questions at hand. Apart from the US support for Isreal, what are the policies that serve to “piss muslims off”?
And what would you do? Release all the Guantanamo Bay inmates? Abandon Israel, the only democracy in the entire region?

For the interested, you can find that article in full here

Clearly Israel is reason one for anti-American sentiment in the Middle East. Number two is the Gulf War and its aftermath. I am not saying we did not do the right thing in intervening on behalf of Kuwait. Think back to post WW2 Europe and Japan. After destroying so much of the infrastructure of Germany and Japan we came right back with aid and manpower to get those countries backon their feet again. The perception in the middle east is we destroyed the country and then instituted policies which have prevented any chance Iraq had of rebuilding. We prevent any sort of aid out of fear it will be used for weapons programs. Which I agree with by the way. But in the mind of the average Muslim you can appreciate that this comes off as heavy handed? The whole root of the problem in my mind was we did not remove Saddam then. If we has we likely would have made a great effort to rebuild and help them. But we did not and instead we have continued to punish them for our failing for 12 years. And believe me it is widely promoted by others in the region who are against the US as an example of our “evil”. Most of the troubles in the last decade that are not related directly to Israel mostly stem from this. Whether it is inspections, military bases, economics of oil.

The issue now in my mind is that Bush is inventing “cassus belli” now against Iraq as justification to try and go in and fix this. The US was the hero in 91 and now we are being perceived as the the bully instead. I am less concerned with winning this conflict then I am with its fallout 5-10 years from now.

Every one of the 9/11 hijackers entered the US from overseas.

I think you’re wrong there. Some of the hijackers came in on the ferry from Nova Scotia to Maine, specifically The Cat which unloads at Acadia National Park/Bar Harbor, Maine if I remember correctly. I think that fellow they caught out west also came in across the Washington state/Canadian border. The one that was going to blow up explosives at LAX on New Year’s.

–Dave

AIM - I am curious, where is the outrage over Iraq’s Parliment voting against the UN proposal? I am going to go out in the streets to day and start my own peace rally - I will be protesting Iraq’s refusal to follow the UN.

I learned some things from the Florence “Peace Rally”

Sigh. Okay, you want to crack down on the Mexican border? Be my guest. But there is no problem with the Canadian border. We may not be perfect with keeping undesirables out of the country, either, but the US has a far, far worse record. Every one of the 9/11 hijackers entered the US from overseas. You want to bitch to somebody, bitch to Germany, or even the UK. The main Al Qaeda cells that launched the 9/11 attacks and later events like the Richard Reid shoebombing came from Hamburg and London, not Ottawa or Montreal. Canada is not being used as some kind of stopover destination, because it’s easier to get in here and then sneak across the border into the US.[/quote]

Are you sure? (ABCNews) I have heard these reports numerous times from many sources.

“Canada’s immigration system, because it is both open and accessible, is vulnerable to exploitation and abuse,” says the Canadian Security Intelligence Service report, which was written in July 1999 and obtained by ABCNEWS.com via a freedom of information request. “This is of chief concern for Canada’s national security.”

and

Canada is well-known among terrorists around the world as one of the easiest countries to enter undetected, says Alan Bell, president of Globe Risk Holdings, an international security consulting firm based in Toronto.

There’s this too. (Canadian Press) This one talks of the explosives which were coming across the border for Seattle’s millenium celebration.

Ressam is accused of bringing enough bomb-making equipment from Victoria to the United States to blow up a large building and kill hundreds of people.

Prosecutors say he was part of a larger group of terrorists based in Montreal aimed at striking a U.S. target during millennium celebrations as part of a holy war against America.

His December 1999 arrest came after he eluded authorities in Canada for almost two years. His ability to evade detection in Canada sparked U.S. congressional calls for tighter restrictions along the Canada-U.S. border

I really was not accusing our brothers to the north of aiding and abetting terrorism, but there are definitely holes in your system as well as ours which need to be closed up. I am just stating we, in the U.S., need to tighten things up a bit all around our country.

Heheh. No, Brett, (BTW, I know I misspelled Palestinian - it was late and I was tired, but I’ve written papers on the situation), I’m not suggesting that this is something that goes back to Moses. I was just saying that for a lot of people, all they know about the history of this situation is what they’ve seen on CNN. Like I said, even after you study the modern history of the situation, we’ll still have disagreements - case in point - but at least they’ll be based on historical fact.

Do you think that if Israeli said “OK, we’ll give this chunk of land to form a Palestinian homeland” the terrorism would stop? Frankly, I’d like to see them do it, because then it would rob the terrorists of their surface justification. But you know as well as I do that this is much more about other Arab nations using Arafat and the terror organizations to kill Israelis by proxy. That has been Arafat’s history.

When Israel was formed, they offered the land being discussed more than once to Arab settlers. No one wanted it at the time - the offer was rejected as unacceptable. What they wanted was Israel to dissapear. That is still the goal of many in the region - why do you think that every time there is a hint of negotiations there are renewed school bus attacks?

Israel did give back quite a bit of the land that they captured during the two wars. Some of it they kept as the spoils of war. I’m not at all saying that I agree with the way in which Israel has conducted some of their policies, but I do easily draw a line between what they are doing today and what the Palestinian terrorists are doing.

The point of not removing Hussein is something I think we can agree on. Bush Sr’s lack of sack is the direct cause of the problems we are having today. The Bush administration was scared to death that the American public would see the wholesale slaughter that was the Iraq conflict. When Powell saw the so called “road of death” he advised Bush that if the pictures made it to the public that support for the war would dry up. So, after 100 hours, with Iraq pushed out of Kuwait, Bush declared a cease fire.

There are many excuses now as to why Saddam wasn’t removed from power. Some say that his successor was unknown, so it was better to face the evil you know than the evil you don’t know. Some say that once the goals were met that there was no reason to continue the conflict. Me, well, I think Bush wimped out. At that point there were only 300-something U.S. fatalities and the U.S. public was still behind the war. Bush’s fear of another Vietnam caused him to quit while we were ahead. (idle speculation, of course. It’s not like I’ve sat down and talked with Bush Sr.)

I also agree that Bush Jr. seems to be looking for excuses to invade Iraq. Why? I don’t think it’s for oil, we already have plenty of that, and we could cause a massive drop in oil prices by lifting the Iraqi embargo. I don’t honestly think it’s because of terrorism; there just hasn’t been a shred of credible evidence released to the public showing that Iraq is supporting al Quada (or however it’s spelled). I think it’s 1) a distraction from internal problems, 2) a personal grudge by Bush because Iraq is telling him now. It’s like he wants to spank a mouthy child or something. And/or 3) a verbal show in order to accomplish through politics what is being threatened by force. Bush’s sabre rattling has already forced the U.N. into adopting a much stronger resolution for Iraqi inspectors. And if Iraq accepts the U.N. resolution, it will be because Bush is threatening to tople Hussein if they reject it. So, in the end, this may all be a giant puppet show put on for the benefit of scaring the Iraqi leadership.

I’ve had my suspicions about this for a while. I keep quoting Scarlet O’Hara: “Oh fiddle-dee-dee! Anyway, there’s not going to be any war.”

It would make me feel a whole lot better about using a potential war with Iraq as a political ploy during the mid-term elections if Bush had no real intention of fighting.

Looks like Iraq accepted the UN Resolution.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&cid=578&u=/nm/20021113/ts_nm/iraq_un_dc

–milo
http://www.starshatter.com

How dare Saddam vote against his parliment!!!

Chet

It was the perfect ploy on Iraq’s part. Parliment supposedly represents the people of Iraq. Soooo, Parliment votes down the resolution, showing that the people of Iraq do not accept the terms. Saddam then reluctantly accepts the resolution, making it clear to the world that the evil threats of the United States is forcing him to go against the will of the people. This also allows him to show the world that his people are united with him in his stance against the United States while still averting military strikes.

It’s all just a show, and everyone knows that the Iraqi Parliment voted the way Saddam told them to vote. If we didn’t have the insight into the Iraqi government, Saddam’s little staged play would have been a bit more compelling. A united Iraq rejecting the demands of an evil empire, while the benevolent leader capitulates to save his country from ruin. I can’t wait to see how this is represented in the Iraqi state run newspapers.

That’s not correct. Basically both points are correct – Brett is correct in that no terrorist who has attacked the U.S. (including the 9/11 terrorists) entered the U.S. through Canada (or has otherwise been connected to Canada). The only incident at all related to Canada was tne guy with bad intentions who was caught at the border in connection with the Millenium New Years, as Dave indicated. To date, there has never been a Canadian connection to any terrorist act in the U.S., notwithstanding a lot of fear-mongering in the U.S. media.

That said, the Canadian immigration and controls do suck. The Canadian government refuses to even acknowledge that organizations like Hezbollah are terrorists. To the extent terrorists haven’t used Canada as a base to plan operations against the U.S. (or Canadian targets), we’ve just been lucky. The fact that the “Bin Laden” tape yesterday specifically named Canadian as potential targets will hopefully get a few heads out of the sand before it’s too late to prevent a tragedy.

Stefan