1861

It’s damned scary. Honestly, it’s a lot “easier” to decide to go to a job that pays less but would be much more enjoyable and satisfying if you’ve lost a job, vs. leaving an existing one. I took a MAJOR reduction in salary to accept my current job, also a loss in other compensation forms, but when you’re in the middle of the 2009 recession and there are NO jobs, you feel very lucky to get ANY job. The good side of it was, these guys were customers of my previous company, had a GREAT reputation, etc. 6 years later (hard to believe it’s been that long!) I still don’t make quite what I was making in my previous job, but I love my job. Which I had decided, years before, was not really possible; I had decided the only way to love my job would be to go to a completely different type of job. (and you never know, right, until you get into that new job.)

Another example: when I get let go from the job that made me throw up in the morning (that paid a fortune, had limos pick me up, etc.) my top scientist also got let go. He was your typical acerbic but genius scientist, young Ph.D., there was literally not a money making product in the company for which he had not been a major contributor. But he was the kind of guy who had no problem letting the CEO know that the really stupid thing the CEO just said was really stupid. Having worked with both professors and industrial scientists for many years, I knew this guy would never truly be happy working in a company with all the managers and stupid business decisions, etc. He easily found another job in another company pretty quickly but it chafed him to have to work on projects that he knew made no sense, were doomed, etc. and not be able to work on what he knew to be better approaches.

So I helped him get a job as a professor. Now, I am well aware of the politics, etc. of a university. As was he (we’d done numerous joint projects with universities and knew a lot of profs well.) But long story short, he got in, quickly used his savvy and contacts to get funding, got a nice group of students, and made tenure very quickly (he made sure he and the department head got along well before taking the job.) His biggest issue: he made a LOT less money to start than he did with the companies he’d worked with. He’s now doing better, not making as much money still, but he absolutely loves coming in to work, loves being a professor, and laughs at the things the other profs (who have never worked in industry) get worked up over.

But - he made the move as a result of being fired (though he did leave the company he went to work with for a year after being fired.)

Oh - the funny part, the company he left to take the prof job pays him a lot to be a consultant to them. ;)

1862

A few more things from personal experience on salary negotiations:

  1. Do some research first to see what the industry average is for your field. Sure, start with salary.com but see if you can get more specific salary surveys in your field.
  2. Next, as others have said, prove your worth. Point out all the things you bring to the table. Prove that you are BETTER than the average person in that specific field.
  3. Show them the salary data research you have gathered (or talk about it). Now, if they believe you are better than the average candidate then maybe you should be compensated more than average. But be careful and flexible here. A lot of that salary data I think is based on people with long tenure with years and years of raises at big companies and those are very hard to match for starting at a new job and especially at smaller/younger companies. But it at least gives you a bit of leverage and sound reasoning to backup your side of the negotiation. Instead of just saying hey I want more monies! you say here is what the similar jobs are paying in this field in this general location, here is the expected range of salary, here is the average, I’m good or better than most candidates at these things, I’ve accomplished all these things in previous jobs, so I think this x-y range of salary would be reasonable.
    …
  4. profit!
1863

And I think you also do have to just realize some companies, especially smaller ones, just don’t pay as much as others. (caveat, not all small companies are made alike.) As with my current job, you just have to add up the whole package (including what they do pay) and decide if you could be happy spending most of your waking life there.

1864

I was gonna say pretty much the same thing Desslock said. You lose nothing by doing the interview and you might even impress them enough they will up the offer a tad. I agree that if given the opening, see if there is any wiggle room for possibly a bump in pay after a predetermined probationary period. The last interview I went on about a week ago, it was sort of similar. The money was lower than I would have liked, but not crazy low. But it came with a sizable bump after 3 months. I let them know they would WANT to give me the raise to keep me there. I would make myself that valuable. Haven’t heard back yet, but there’s always hope I guess.

Anyway, I sure hope it works out for you. No income is a special kind of hell.

1865

I have now got another meet on Monday with this company and hopefully we can get somewhere re what they need and where they see me.

Things are fine but I am running out of jobs and my wife is now on holiday (she is a school teacher) and is hassling me to get back to work.

I have to say I have never worked harder and done so many jobs that needed doing, the house, gardens etc are now really up together soit hasn’t been a waste of time but I defintely am ready for a new challenge.

Oh yeah I have had some driving lessons, seems like 4 or 5 more and I can take my test.

1866

(shock) you don’t drive (yet)! Well i’m not sure if it will matter in your field, but having a driving licence is meant to be good for jobs, or so i was told a long time ago. Good luck on the job meeting :)

1867

Well I have gone 44 years without one. Actually I do have a full Motorcycle one :D

1868

ah, i suddenly pictured you as a 20 year old! So yeah, my missus don’t drive either yet, this might be a revelation four our american cousins, the uk is that small you can get by without a car for each person :)

1869

I think I ike you :)

1870

Well, it just didn’t work out. Everytime I thought I had something worked out, then something else would happen and it wouldn’t work out. I’ve had defeat snatched from the jaws of victory more times than I can count. Regardless, time and money have simply run out. With the help of friends, I was able to buy myself another 30 days last month. I did manage to land a gig at a local university, but it’s only for a month and it doesn’t start until August 10th. That’s just too late. So starting Saturday, I am living in my car. As I am 53 and in not great health, I do not really expect to recover from this downward spiral. If I was 25 or so, maybe. I couldn’t find employment at 53 under the best of circumstances. I wonder how easy it will be while living in my car (and I turn 54 next week.) I think my ride is simply up.

So thanks for all the games we played, advice given and received, etc. It’s been an honor getting to know a fair number of you.

Take care

1871

Sounds like things are still super challenging. I’m sorry to hear it, and I hope it gets better soon. Living in a car is tough, but maybe you can use it as an opportunity to drive somewhere more hospitable and start over. I don’t know what else to say except keep on trying to sort through it, a day at a time. What else can you do?

I hope you can find a way to celebrate your birthday next week. Maybe go see the new Mission Impossible movie and buy yourself a big salty bag of buttered popcorn and a coke! Good luck! Happy birthday!

1872

Is it a dick move to swap one contract position for another, if the new one offers a higher rate?

I have been thinking that it’s survival of the fittest. Go to the job with the highest rate. Sometimes I consider things like commute and how much I like the people I’m working with and if the work is interesting, but for the most part, the people are all the same (nice folks who just want a job done) and the work is all somewhat dull and uninteresting, if necessary and sometimes even urgent.

I haven’t actually done a lot of consulting/contract work, but right now this is all that’s available. I have another offer from someone, but I’m suddenly thinking that maybe there is an expectation of some sort – I’m not even sure what to call it – loyalty? I have thought that one thing I could do is just put the ball in the employer’s court and tell the agency I’m with now that I have another offer from another agency and see if they’ll match it. I haven’t done this sort of thing before, but I could do it, if it’s the way this sort of thing works.

What are your thoughts on any of this? I’d like to hear from others with a lot of contracting experience, as well as from managers or people who do hiring for consulting organizations. It all seems very cutthroat from my (limited) experience this past year or so.

1873

My two cents: how much loyalty do you think the current employer has towards you? If times got tough for them and they needed to cut costs, would they take a hit in their company wallet to keep you out of their loyalty to you?

I struggled with this in the past, i.e. loyalty to a company, and the current one is the only one, in 30+ years, that I feel would make that loyalty a two way street - because I’ve seen them walk that talk. I’ve seen my boss/our CEO tell a long term employee with cancer, certainly terminal, that he should not worry about having to reduce his hours below full time, because he would give him full time benefits as long as he worked even a few hours a week, because he was part of the company family for over 30 years. And more of that type of walk the talk. So yeah, these guys, I would and have given my loyalty to.

Every other company I’ve worked for, no matter how good they were, at the end of the day when times got tough, cut people etc. when the bottom line so dictated. Usually with a “We’re so sorry we’re forced to do this, but.” I know, because I’ve been both on the side of the one telling a good employee we’re so sorry but… and I’ve had it said to me. For those companies, no matter how good they are, there is no doubt this is a pure business relationship. Not saying that’s bad or wrong, just they have shareholders to please, etc…

Without knowing your situation, I’d say, hey, you are working for them, providing a service they need in return for money you need. All things being equal, if someone else pays more (and again - all other things being equal - as you know, often those “other things” have a lot of value that has to be included in the equation) my two cents would be let them know you’ve enjoyed working for them, but you’ve been approached with another offer you really can’t afford to ignore. Then see if they want to counter. If not, OK, their loyalty to you is worth whatever they were paying but not more, right?

1874

You shouldn’t stay out of a sense of loyalty to the company. Rather, try to determine the potential costs and benefits to YOU. The benefit of moving on from the current contract seems straightforward: the increased income. Abandoning the contract may have a cost to you that’s harder to calculate. Is the market you’re in a small one? Will you develop a certain reputation that will impact future opportunities?

Personally, I think discussing it with your current contractee is the best option. Assuming you don’t have any sort of contract, I’d let them know that another opportunity came up and that, ideally giving them a minimum of a week’s notice. If the new contractee can wait, a week is presumably not going to hit the bottom line too hard while still potentially preserving your reputation in the market.

If you have any sort of actual contractual obligation, I would not screw with that.

1875

Strategy that worked for me last month:

  1. Make account on linkedin. Make it a sales sheet for you.
  2. Search your city for “recruiter” and “talent” and “hiring”
  3. Friend everybody who shows up in the search and is a hiring manager or recruiter for the type of company you want.
  4. Sit back and wait a couple days.

I had a new job lined up within a week, and I’m redirecting other incoming offers to the folks I work with who got laid off or will be in the coming months.

It does help to live in an area with an economy. If you don’t, I would suggest picking a good city instead of your own and do the same process.

Additional note: The moment I caught an ill wind in the air here about the future I was in motion. I’m way ahead of the game compared to the folks who decide to “wait and see”. Turns out I was right, because management confirmed it last Monday. So, my other advice is don’t waste any time once you feel nervous about your job.

1876

Tim - Interesting question. I’d definitely give them the right of first refusal. Depending upon how long you’ve been there, the cost of interviewing & ramping a new employee can be significant and I’d like to think that given the chance, they would match your offer. However, there is another side of corporate america which does not negotiate and they may feel this is a ploy to extract more $$.

Unless the contracting agency you’re currently with has been really good for you - finding you jobs, etc, I wouldn’t give loyalty a moment’s notice. Usually my experience is they just want butts in seats.

1877

Yeah, the other side of the coin - for our full time employees, I almost never do salary matching if someone comes in and says they just got a bigger paying offer from another company. I don’t hold it against them. But for us, I feel that it is unfair to the people who don’t threaten to leave if they get less pay than someone who does. Now, the other side of that is I work hard to determine the value of each of our jobs, and try to make sure we are paying a fair salary + comps for each job. But being a smaller company than many of my huge global competitors, we can’t match their salaries. OTOH, one of our benefits is, during the crash a few years ago, we had no mass layoffs while those huge competitors were firing huge numbers, and we also have a much less stressful/political environment.

But my point is that you shouldn’t feel insulted if the current company doesn’t chase the salary offers of other companies.

OTOH - your contractor job may be very different from the full time employee roles I’m talking about.

1878

I was going to write some not that clever thing about moving to the UK (where our (being reduced all the time!) social care can take of you through this hard time) or something, but decided against it. Have you thought about just taking any job at all, even in your 50’s you got a good time left before needing to retire, and even if the jobs are not related to your field they could see you through the whole ‘got to live in my car’ stage. You don’t have to put them on your CV if you are worried about how that would look. Also what about self-employed as a consultant or some such?

Anyway it sounds truly dire what you have been through and i wish you the best and a speedy exit out of your current desperate situation.

1879

Thanks guys! That helps quite a bit.

Stepsongrapes, that’s really good way to look at it. But it’s very hard for me to determine the intangibles of how moving might hurt me in the long run. I hope I’m not consulting in the long run, but you can never really know how these things will play out. It’s also a challenge because the small company I’m with right now seem like really nice people. It’s a very small company. Everytime I ask for something, I’m referred to someone else who has the same last name. :)

Jeff, Tman, those are helpful comments. The way it’s playing out, I may not have the offer to move to the higher paying consulting job, so I may never have to ask my current manager. I don’t have the balls to play the game where you pretend you have an offer to get a higher rate. Or maybe a better way to say it is that I’m no longer that reckless. :) I am going to just hold steady and ask for what I need when I need it.

It’s crazy because it’s feast or famine. I interviewed for two positions the week before last. Both went really well, but already one has dried up and the other won’t be able to say one way or the other for as long as another two weeks. So I’m dragging my feet with the higher paying agency job, because I don’t want to accept it, then move on two weeks later if the FTE spot comes through. For some reason, he is pressuring me to sign on now, even though I’ve explained my situation to him. Ultimately my goals is an FTE spot somewhere. If that won’t work, I want the highest paying consultant/agency position I can find.

1880

Tim, per your comment on playing games/bluffing on having a higher paying offer, my opinion is that is never a good idea; I’m glad your instincts tell you not to do that. Obviously, it’s dishonest, and that’s just never a good idea for all the obvious reasons (and I’m sure why you don’t want to do it.)

The other is that’s its an “all in” game. We just had a relatively young lady play that game with us. She’s good, but she’s gotten an inflated opinion of herself in the last couple of years. So she waltzes in to her manager’s office, says “I have an offer that is much higher than what I’m getting paid here from XXXX, so I’m afraid I have to resign. I just can’t afford to turn that down.” The manager asked her, is that the only reason you’re leaving us, just the higher money? She said yes. He asked, how much? and she told him a number that was about 50% higher than what she was making. So the manager told her, well, we hate to lose you but if you feel like that salary is enough for you to leave us, all we can say is good luck.

Soooo, she walks back to her office, in another building, and after about 20 minutes she called the manager. She was both in tears and angry. “I can’t believe you just let me walk away like that! I can’t believe you wouldn’t counter offer!” etc. The manager said, you know we don’t play the counter offer game, Jeff feels like it is unfair to the people who don’t threaten to leave for their peer to get a higher salary purely because they do threaten to leave.

More drama, but the bottom line was she was bluffing. She got back to her office, realized oh crap, NOW what. There was no graceful out. Not only that, but she didn’t really understand the network we have in this industry; I chair a national technical steering team for our industry, and the CTO for the company that she claimed to have the offer from is on that team and, even though we are competitors., we talk pretty often. Later I talked to the CTO and she told me they never gave our employee an offer.

So today, this employee has lost a lot of credibility. I told my manager, OK, chalk it up to immaturity, but his feeling is he can’t really give her the promotion he was going to give her, at least for a while, because it has a lot more responsibility and he is not comfortable she isn’t going to walk out the door as soon as she can find another job, plus he just doesn’t trust her any more. (I may end up having to move her to a role with another manager if this was just a dumb one time move on her part.)

Too long, but just one example that happened to me very recently when someone bluffed a job move to try to get more money. It MAY work, but it is a dangerous game and, IMO, very different from approaching an employer when you have a real offer and wanting to discuss it with them.

BTW - there is a school of thought that you should never tell a current employer you have an offer from another company that you are contemplating. The thinking being that, even if you stay, it puts the thought in the mind of upper management that you are a risk to leave and thus they will not consider you for promotions and more important roles. And I know some managers do indeed think that way. Not all, but some.

FWIW