I think I read somewhere that if an employee accepts a counter offer to stay at their current job, statistically they won’t stay at the company for more than 18 months. The damage on both sides is already done.
In my limited experience (seeing a handful of friends do it) that seems to be true.
In other news, I start my new job today. Just a week shy of my 3 month anniversary of being laid off. That was definitely a weird journey. So thankful that it’s over.
Congrats and good luck!
Jeff, as someone who has been in and out of employment a handful of times since registering here, I just wanted to say your perspective of the process from both sides and anecdotes to go with that are both enjoyable and helpful to read.
Congrats!
Jeff, that’s the best breakdown of the whole counteroffer thing I’ve ever seen. Very nicely done. Also, well handled in your unfortunate example case.
I agree with the perspective that, except in rare circumstances, it’s too late by that point to retain the employee. The relationship is already sufficiently damaged that it’s a very low percentage play. nKoan’s referenced 18 months, for example.
On the other hand, assuming both sides share the goal of compensating employees fairly, compensation discussions can be done differently to achieve that. If an employee feels they’re undercompensated, I as a manager very much want to know that, and to understand why. Coming to me and saying, “I think I’m worth more, and here’s industry data about comparable positions and comp numbers, why I believe I fit higher on that curve than where I am today, etc.” is an uncomfortable, but welcome, conversation. The general outcomes tend to be, (a) the employee’s priorities aren’t in line with the company’s regarding comp (e.g., Jeff’s workplace prioritizing stability and low-drama over raw dollars), (b) the employee is correct, and I need to have a convincing way to say that without overpromising (I need to get any comp adjustments approved up the chain), or © the employee’s self-evaluation of their place on that curve is out of whack with the company’s (my) evaluation.
In the first case, we have a conversation about priorities, what we offer as a company, whether that’s what the employee is looking for, etc… Provide information and counterarguments against the usual “grass is always greener” mentality. It’s not a, “You should stay because the total compensation when including intangibles is actually so much better than Brand X!” Rather, it’s, “Let’s talk about what’s important to you, the employee, and how we can meet your needs as an employer within our structure.” That relies on the typical fact that it’s rarely at heart all about the money, but rather what the money enables. Sometimes the employee decides that the grass really is greener over there and looks for (if they don’t already have an offer) and accepts a position elsewhere. That sucks for me, but if it really does better meet that person’s needs, then I can’t really argue with their decision.
The second is uncomfortable for me as a manager, but is very important, as it implies that we, as a company, have misevaluated something and need to fix it. While it’s not a fun conversation, I’m grateful to have it, as it means the employee really wants to stay and rather than just leaving, they’re giving me the opportunity to fix things. That bodes very well for a good outcome for all concerned.
In the third, it’s a much tougher conversation. It generally means the regular channels of performance feedback have broken down somehow. I often see this when a manager has an attitude of “my employees know how they’re doing, I don’t need to tell them.” Regardless, this needs to be a very frank discussion laying out why the company feels the employee’s compensation is fair. That’s likely to get a bit ugly. The most likely outcome, and probably best for all concerned, is the employee will indeed leave.
In my industry, that is almost certainly the prevailing feeling. If someone is out there actively looking, the general feeling is that the best that you will be able to do is delay their departure by a few months.
THIS. Never be afraid to come up with metrics to show your employers that indicate you could be under-paid. That is confrontational, but there is a lot of difference between “I did some research and I think I’m under-compensated” and “I put my resume out there and Bob down the street will pay me more than you do.”
So, on a related note (apologies for wall-of-text; TL;DR at the bottom, and advice is appreciated):
Our organization is underwater pretty heavily, but our parent org has promised to do what’s necessary to keep us afloat another couple of years to see if we can work things out and come out profitable. That’s going to involve some fairly significant structural and operational changes, of course.
As a little background, I joined this team about 4 years ago as a temp–specifically working on “data entry” (the director at the time was a luddite who needed help porting her email from our old mailservers and her old Blackberry to the new mail systems and new iPhone). It just so happened I joined up a couple of weeks after their short-lived Administrative Assistant had been fired, so when I completed my tasks very quickly and efficiently, they gave me a few more things to do to burn out the temp contract. . . found I did those things well, too, and, long story short, asked me to come onto a longer temp contract as an admin assistant.
Now, with a degree in journalism and experience in camp counseling, ice cream scooping, and working backend payment gateway tech support for a credit card processor, that was pretty far out of my bailiwick, but I had spent some time working in an academic office at my alma mater, so I decided to give it a shot. The pay was decent for temp work (good hourly pay that would cover our basic necessities without major issue, but no vacation, insurance, or other benefits), and since my gf was working as a tutor and lab coordinator, it worked okay!
A nasty downside to North Carolina employment is that temps can only be held onto for 11 months–it’s meant to encourage companies to hire them fulltime instead of stringing them along. In my case, it did work out; after 11 months, they liked me enough to ask me to stay around, and so I was brought on as a Program Coordinator. Unfortunately, that resulted in a small (sub-5%) paycut, plus the mandatory state retirement plan cut another 6% out of my pre-tax income. Around that time, my girlfriend began experiencing medical issues that would eventually lead to her taking a leave of absence from school, thus losing her lucrative jobs there.
At time of full-time hire, I was given an official in-org title (the Program Coordinator thing was just a university-wide job band–another guy hired a little after I became fulltime was also a “Program Coordinator,” but he started 60% higher than I did!): “Event Coordinator.” However, this wasn’t ever really defined, and the director at that time (2nd out of 3 I’ve worked under) basically said “Keep doing all the secretarial stuff you have been doing, and also plan events.”
Here we are quite some time later, and what that has morphed into is working directly with our Finance Manager on almost everything she does (also a luddite; doesn’t understand Excel or really much of anything!). I’m doing event planning, yes, but since that’s so tied up in contracts, I end up doing a ton of her work, too. Plus secretarial stuff, like copies, mailing, supplies, etc. And, of course, I’ve been sucked into the “program” side of things (we’re an education nonprofit, so I’m working with our “students” directly, working at our conferences and institutes, organizing interviews, managing the selection process). Oh, and I also do most of the data management in the org (Salesforce “guru”).
Director announced recently that I’d move purely to data management & collection, event planning (no contracts), and an increasing role in program activities. Officially, ALL secretarial duties, administrative assistant duties, and finance assistance duties are being wiped from my plate (part of this is an attempt to get the Finance Manager to actually do their job, to be fair), and for the first time since I was hired, I am going to get an official job description that denotes these things (up until now, leadership’s relied on a line in my job description about “and other duties as deemed necessary by the Director” to justify everything I do). These new (and also old, but officially confirmed) tasks are significantly more intensive, skills-based, and mission-critical than the envelope-licking and corporate credit card management of old.
Thus, at my upcoming meeting with the Director to finalize all this stuff, I’d really like to negotiate a pay raise of some sort. Working for the State, I’ve seen exactly one raise since I was brought on, and that one was so small that my salary hasn’t even kept pace with inflation–nevermind the paycut I took to go fulltime, or the mandatory retirement payments I make, or the fact that my girlfriend has been unemployed and basically bedridden with illnesses we can’t afford to treat for 6 months now. Thus, I might need to make the bid for a new job title rather than a raise (those are VERY difficult to justify in the system; promotions are hard, but less so). In my corner is the fact that I’m the lowest-compensated person in the organization by about 60%–and the next lowest after that is almost doubling my present salary.
So, how do I arm myself for this meeting? How do I make the play for desperately needed income in an organization that’s rapidly going bankrupt with a new Director who knows almost nothing about me? Is it even worthwhile, since officially, promotions involve opening the new position up to public applications, and the last time I went out for a “shoe-in” promotion in this organization (that was verbally promised to me), we had a leadership change right in the middle of it and I was shot down quicker than you can blink? I mean, I’d hate to have my position upgraded, apply to stay in it, and then lose my whole job!
So, what do, Qt3?
TL;DR: I joined a nonprofit as a temp secretary 4 years ago. A year later, I was made fulltime, but took a paycut–leaving my pay at half of the average for the org, and the lowest within it by a wide margin. My position title changed, but my duties simply accreted “under the table,” and my official job description is still basically “secretary + other stuff.” Recent organizational changes are going to formalize my duties, increasing their officially noted complexity, skill-level, and usefulness significantly. Is there any way to turn this to my financial advantage–and thus dig me and my family out of a disastrous downward financial spiral that’s ruining my gf’s career and health–without looking like a total tool, since organization changes have to do with us losing money hand over fist to begin with? What do?!
that sounds sucky. I am not an american, so no nothing of your employment laws, but in your shoes i’d simply focus on
In my corner is the fact that I’m the lowest-compensated person in the organization by about 60%–and the next lowest after that is almost doubling my present salary.
and ‘what’s up with that?!’ etc.
Now it may be that kind of approach could get you fired (i have no idea how things work in the usa), but your work deal sounds terrible, and you’ve more than proven your worth over the years you’ve done all you have, so make up a list of everything you’ve done for them over the years, just to let them know as managers often do not keep an overview of that kind of thing.
I don’t know about the whole “promotions involve opening the new position up to public applications” and if it’s in your ability to do anything about it at all, other may know more. But since you have this meeting scheduled, I’d say make a list of all the duties and responsibilities you took on since joining, in order of importance / complexity, and then politely ask for a raise. It mustn’t be confrontational and I wouldn’t imply its a condition for staying. Emphasize how much you like to work there etc.
That said, once your job description changes to something more marketable, why not update your linkedin profile, and start looking for other jobs? In my experience substantial pay rises (as in more then 5% sort of thing) come with changing employer. It’s a psychological thing I think - we’ve been paying him X for years so that’s probably what his worth, we can’t just add 10-20% out of the blue. But the new guy is definitely worth extra 30% - he’s been doing great stuff in other places (or they just get someone else who is desparate enough to do the job for a low wage).
If I had another offer from a company, I wouldn’t ask my old job to match, but if I was willing to leave over it- I’d probably ask for a raise on the spot, and if I didn’t get it, I’d give my notice then and tell them that I had another offer, and since they wouldn’t match it- I’m going to take that offer.
If they offered a raise, I’d stay depending on how much it was.
Then again, I like that my current job is union and that stuff is handled by others- I don’t like negotiating over stuff like that, and I don’t like political stuff/having to prove your worth with shenanigans.
Marxeil: I am afraid that it’ll come down a mixture of what you said and the state budgetary concerns (getting anything more than a pittance of a raise approved is almost literally an act of Congress, and most years we can’t even rely on a cost of living increase since the state government is entirely locked up by the Republicans for the next decade or so).
My only concern with shopping around is that realistically, the skillsets I have here are mostly applicable at other education nonprofits (since I lack a higher degree in Ed, getting the really lucrative job slots in those places is very difficult–I’ve tried!) and then event/sales teams (e.g., hotel conferences, large conference centers, etc.), and then general office administration, in roughly that order. None of those tend to pay a lot more than I make now, and the latter two are exactly the kind of work that I find most mentally draining/soulsucking.
I dunno. This is why I’m taking the three free classes a year my university job gets me to get a certificate-into-Master’s in CS–I just feel like I’m in something of a dead end, and being bottom of the totem pole here only exacerbates that perception.
Regardless, I will put together that list before the big meeting and see how it goes. I guess wish me luck :P
I really wish we’d keep a Director long enough for me to get to know one well enough to “read the temperature in the room” a little better on stuff like this. Our current head is a little aloof (not in a rude way; I think she’s just a very quiet, considered person) and is VERY difficult to gauge.
My wife worked at a university with a similar organizational rules about raises so I know it’s hard and the process seems long and drawn out, but you have to get started. I like Marxeil’s idea about getting it started and putting your updated description on LinkedIn and shopping it around. I wouldn’t worry so much about gauging a reaction. You have to ask for the raise even if she isn’t willing to give it. You’re asking because it’s the right thing to do, not because you think you’ll get it. Even if she won’t give it, it’s still the right thing to do.
Armando,
I think you’ve got a good start right here in what you’ve posted to the thread. The key to getting more money out of your organization seems to be convincing them that you’re being promoted or moving into a completely different job role altogether, which is exactly what is happening. They are giving you a totally new job title, with new job description and responsibilities, you’re not going to find a more perfect time to ask them to make the compensation fall in line with those responsibilities.
It sounds like in order to do that they would need to “open” the job to outside candidates, which carries it’s own risk. On the other hand, it also sounds like they like you a lot and have crafted this new position with you already in mind, which means it’s going to be difficult for another candidate to displace you as the favorite. If it were me, I would talk to the director and explain my situation: “I love it here, I work hard, I am experienced with the organization’s software, workflow, regulations, etc., and I am really excited about the coming change in my responsibilities, but I also feel my performance over the past years and my new job title and responsibilities merit an increase in compensation.” Then lay out (as you have above) all the contributions you’ve made to the company during your employment. Suggest that since they are creating a new position for you to move into, it would be an ideal time to adjust compensation.
Basically you have to ask, and craft the request in such a way that makes it crystal clear that you enjoy working for the company but feel that your performance and additional/new responsibilities should come paired with an increase in compensation. Companies never love it when employees ask for more money, but there is a right time and way and a wrong time and way to ask for a raise, and your circumstances seem textbook “right way”. The worst that can happen is that they say NO. If they fire you just because you asked for a raise, they are not a place you would want to work for anyway…
Good luck!
That’s a good approach. The main thing I’d add is to be concise. If the person you’re talking to gets either bored or annoyed at how long things are taking, you’re hurting your own cause.
Well, that went about how I expected.
“I suppose you probably will keep doing most of the same things on the sheet you provided, but we’ll try to make the Finance person do their job more often so you don’t have to. Also here’s several things from the Program side that they can’t handle anymore, so you’ll take all that on. It’s sad that your pay has technically decreased with time as your responsibilities have escalated, but we are operating in the red now, so the best I can offer is an internal title change and the promise that I’ll keep compensation in mind if we are able to return to safer financial waters. Thank you for your time.”
A rough paraphrase, of course.
And to be clear, I get it. She was brought on to right a sinking ship, and it’s being sunk partially by high overhead costs. I wish I could stick it out long enough to finish up my Computer Science certificate for free here at the uni, but as it is, I’m starting to make plasma donations to make ends meet. Time to shop the ol’ resume around again.
Sounds like she beat around the bush a bit, but was pretty honest. “Yeah, you’re right, but frankly we don’t have the money to fix it right now. I’m sorry.”
Wish it had gone better for you, but at least you know for sure where you stand and didn’t get too much of a runaround.
yeah much better to know where you stand and make the choices you need to to improve your situation.
That’s a bummer, but internal tite change has some value. Your title is the first step to the recruiter.
Yeah, sucks. But at least she didn’t dick you around.
Yeah, which is appreciated. The rumblings about our parent org floating us cash to help us last past the end of the year were encouraging, but scuttlebutt is that the results of our recent “sustainability study” weren’t exactly what everyone wanted them to be. All the more reason to start looking around before I’m posting in this thread for entirely different reasons :-/
Friend your directors that are on LinkedIn and ask for reviews/recommendations now. There is a whole art to a good LinkedIn profile and the recommendations are a part of it. :)