Except it’s backed by scientist and medical providers. Guess you don’t have that data huh? Still waiting for that link to loads of data you’ve yet to provide, Paint and Sharpies not allowed.
This is an older article (1992) and addresses bacteria not viral spread, but is an interesting summary…
Virus’ are smaller than bacteria,so i doubt it’d be as effective, however i guess the spread we’re mainly talking about is in droplets, right, so that’d be covered…
Largely what i get out of this is proof that mask use does limit the degree to which someone can contaminate air around them.
some other bits:
So no one is saying healthcare providers shouldn’t have access to these masks.
They use them in specific ways, dispose of them properly, are aware of the danger they are in, and don’t use the same one all day long. They don’t push them aside to eat… I mean healthcare providers know what they are generally doing and are aware of the danger. The PPE is important but it doesn’t mean they can let their guard down.
Ya, but I think the point of that last study is that they don’t. Having the extra protection is irrelevant if you just get contaminated because you make a mistake or they’re uncomfortable and too finicky to begin with. It’s like, we have this great system that’s 100% effective except for the times it isn’t…
Nothing is 100%, especially with a virus we’re still studying… but if someone wears a masks and feels safe because of that, their behavior doesn’t just endanger themselves, they endanger everyone around them, everything they touch, and they’re prone to touch that mask, their face… everything because they have a false sense of security.
And again, wearing masks is not uncommon in several countries, but that didn’t stop their huge climb. There is no evidence that that happened. We do know they went into extreme measures quarantines, getting people off the street, tracking and freaking testing, oh my god they are testing, and we’re pulling back on tests because we don’t have them.
Every scientist, medical provider, health admin, manufacturer… do you think they don’t want the answer to be masks? That somehow the people telling other people to social distance wouldn’t prefer to avoid millions unemployed instead of sending out trucks full of masks and chucking them in the street as “the” answer.
We can’t even get people to stop going to the beach or going to get coffee in multiple countries… Changing their behavior, yet somehow we think the general population would change their behavior while wearing a mask… for the better?
This is going to take a lot of effort, and the only solid thing that’s been asked of us right now, and it’s a huge freaking ask, is to stay home… and that’s a struggle. People lined up for… video games.
Everyone loves the JAMA report on Taiwan (as do I) and it also seems that no one ever reads the supplement given in that report. A portion of which, to wit:
- Feb 3 • New name-based rationing system announced for purchase of face masks (starts Feb 6):
- o NHI card holders can purchase 2 masks per week at contracted pharmacies for NT$5 apiece (USD $0.17)
- o NHI cards ending in odd numbers can purchase on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays; NHI cards ending in even numbers can purchase on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays; Sundays are open to all
- o Each person can buy masks for one other person with their NHI card
- o Children’s masks are reserved for aged 12 and younger
- • 3,000 Chunghwa Post (state-run agency) workers of the 7,000 on duty each day will take over logistics of distributing masks to 6,515 pharmacies and 52 health centers.
- Each location will have 200 adult face masks and 50 children face masks every day.
- • Engineers with the Digital Minister develop an app for the public to see pharmacies’ mask stocks
- • 500,000 children’s masks distributed to private kindergartens for free
- • Taipei to punish claw machine operators who sell masks and disinfectants
- Feb 4 • NHIA allows foreigners without NHI cards to use passports to purchase masks unless they are on a tourist visa
- Feb 11 • Government invested NT$200M (USD $6.66 million) to purchase equipment and add production lines
- • 1,800+ Army Reserve troops have aided in mask production across 28 manufacturers
- Feb 13 • Export ban on face masks extended until April 30
- • Government requisitioning of surgical masks extended until April 30
- Feb 16 • Masks are now also available for purchase at 303 local district public health centers
- Feb 17 • Daily testing capacity for COVID-19 is approximately 1,300 samples
- • Daily mask output is 5 million masks; sellers now allotted 400 masks a day
- Feb 20 • Children eligible for 4 face masks every week due to increased production
I am pretty sure children are not healthcare workers. And also that they are bad at social distancing.
No. I assume people are too stupid to do both. But it is very, very easy for a person to understand: stay 2 meters away from other people and wash your hands (although way too many people are too idiotic to understand even this, as the present is showing us).
It is far more difficult to understand:
- Before putting on a mask, clean hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
- Cover mouth and nose with mask and make sure there are no gaps between your face and the mask.
- Avoid touching the mask while using it; if you do, clean your hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
- Replace the mask with a new one as soon as it is damp and do not re-use single-use masks.
- To remove the mask: remove it from behind (do not touch the front of mask); discard immediately in a closed bin; clean hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
Yes - these are the official WHO guidelines for proper mask usage.
Now - if you personally want to use a mask, and know how to use it properly (see above), then more power to you. I would never look at you askance for mask usage. My significant other uses it too, in certain situations.
So far, there is no firm evidence to prove that this is a significant disease vector (laboratory tests <> reality), and that the virus can exist as a true aerosol. That does not mean it cannot happen under the right conditions, it just means that it’s very, very unlikely. And we have very strong evidence the other way, because if the virus could exist an aerosol, we would be seeing vastly higher infection rates of Covid-19 (i.e., measles level, which is R18, rather than the actual R3 that we’re seeing). The infection rate we’re seeing is consistent with droplet level - i.e., very short term presence in the air.
I absolutely agree - if people were smart. Since people aren’t, I think nor recommending is the right strategy. My SO disagrees with me, FWIW, but she also thinks everyone is as careful as she is.
You are describing how to use a mask for self protection.
What you aren’t understanding is that a surgical mask isn’t that. It’s not what those guidelines are for.
You know how to wear a surgical mask? Put it on your face. The end.
It’s not going to provide much protection to you, although it may provide some slight protection my making it harder to touch your face, and stopping someone from coughing into your mouth or nose.
But the real benefit is that if you cough or sneeze, it will trap most of it, and prevent it from getting onto other surfaces, or become aerosolized in a big cloud in front of you. Which will help prevent a transmission to others.
This is the primary purpose of surgical masks, and they do not require the same degree of complexity when using them.
Evidence from various studies points to 30 minutes - 3 hours for ncovSARS2 droplets persisting in the air. At the lower end that’s much less persistent than measles, at the upper end around measles.
But, persistence in the air may not be the only factor in determining contagion. There are other airborne diseases that have less R0 than measles, which is pretty much the most contagious disease known apparently. Just because this isn’t as contagious as measles doesn’t mean it’s not airborne.
And just like that, you demonstrate why it is not necessarily a good idea to ask the general public to use masks. Because, no, that is not how you use a surgical mask properly.
Here, let the lady explain it you herself:
Yes - you may think that all of that is unnecessary. But the point is, and this is literally what @Nesrie and everyone else who’s been talking about this has been saying for weeks now - if you don’t use it correctly, then your use of the mask may contribute to, rather than prevent infections. In the worst case, you may very well end up spreading more concentrated bacteria/virus than if you just walked around, sneezed into your elbow, and followed proper hand hygiene.
Yes. This is why use of a mask is absolutely recommended if you are suffering from an infection that makes you cough, sneeze or have difficulty breathing. Or caring for someone with such an infection. No one has said anything else.
No. If you do have an infection that makes you cough, sneeze, etc, you absolutely should use them correctly. An infection makes proper usage more not less important.
Let’s once again review WHO’s advice for the public: When and how to use masks:
- If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection.
- Wear a mask if you are coughing or sneezing.
- Masks are effective only when used in combination with frequent hand-cleaning with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
- If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly (i.e., see above).
This is completely discounting the existence of asymptomatic carriers. You seem to be focused on the PPE aspects of masks, which are not in dispute. For what’s it’s worth the US CDC is also recommending bandannas in lieu of anything better, but again, let’s put PPE aside for now.
Widespread, social normalization of masks is not a PPE function. It is a societal good just as social distancing is a societal good (especially since social distancing is hard! Queueing up 6 feet apart is hard!) The mask helps prevent transmission of the disease from asymptomatic carriers to others, just as surgeons wear surgical masks to prevent infections in their patients.
Not only have I read it, but we’ve actually discussed it in the main thread previously. For whatever reason, people don’t read links the first time, so things need to be reposed multiple times.
Yes, I know. I was the first to link it. Go back and search my post history in that thread.
We’ve never discussed the actions taken. No one has made any response to what the Taiwan government did, or claimed that the increased usage of masks was unhelpful.
It seems to me that danger of masks is they may give people a false sense of security. I.e I don’t really need to worry about social distancing as much because I’m wearing a mask. Especially because I’d bet the vast majority of American will think that wearing a surgical mask will protect them rather than primarily protecting themselves rather than others.
So it seems like Asian country are telling people to wear masks and the CDC is saying don’t.
Pretty much every WHO official I’ve seen interviewed in the last month or so says that CDC is the best public health organization on the planet. So I’m inclined to take the CDC’s word over some translation of another countries health departments guidance.
At the very least it seems to me that WHO should be the tiebreaker between the CDC and South Korea guidance.
You are missing the key point here, which is that if you are just using them to reduce contagion from the wearer… then yes it actually IS that simple.
Because it’s just providing a physical barrier to your coughing.
Use your brain here, instead of just appealing to authority.
So easy to use!
Trip to grocery store a couple days ago. Handful of non-Asian folks wearing masks. Quite a few Asian folks wearing them; I guess a lifetime habituation helps.
Non-Asian dude in line ahead of me: mask not covering nose. Couple of ladies in front of him - one of them takes the mask off to talk to the checker.
/anecdata
It’s entirely possible Nesrie has a point. Especially when the authority being appealed to is the freaking instructions on the tin.
And how far apart were they standing, in this line?
There are anecdotes for stupid people for everything, including social distancing. But there is not the outcry (except from insane Fox news viewers, and even they got the memo a few days ago) against social distancing.
Probably because social distancing is “stay X distance apart and wash your damn hands”. Also not in short supply and direly needed in actual healthcare settings and being substituted with “social bandannas”.
There are always going to be people who are just imbeciles. They aren’t going to follow social distancing rules either.