Jason, when we get into semantics it always gets to splitting hairs. And I agree, I don’t know where you draw the line in terms of numbers. I’m a Christian (and a Ph.D. scientist FWIW) but I am absolutely filled with revulsion at what the group who go around protesting at veteran’s funerals are doing; does that make me a bigot because they wrap their hate in religion? When I was teaching comparative religions, I tried to do it in a respectful way, inviting rabbis in when we talked about Judaism, Catholic priests in for that part, Muslim religious leaders when we discussed Islam, and I invited a Mormon elder in when we discussed Mormonism. As I’ve noted elsewhere, all of these people were very open to probing but respectful questions except for the Mormon, who got up and stormed out when we started asking questions from The Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Mormon that related to the God-Adam principle, etc. (whereas, the Rabbi was very open to hard questions such as “How can a loving God command the Jewish nation to kill women and children in cities they take over?”) But I admit, I could not present Scientology in any kind of respectful way. Does that make me a bigot in terms of Scientology? Probably. Am I OK with that? Yep.
And probably a hypocrite too. Because I think it is wrong to group large communities of people and look down your nose at them as a group, whether it is Christians, Muslims, Iranians, Koreans, people who live in the South, people who live in California, etc.
Well, I think the simplest explanation is that some things aren’t bigotry, they’re just mean depending on the circumstances. “Your religious ideas are ridiculous” seems a pretty straightforward example.
But consider that the same kind of line is drawn by people that you consider to be bigots. They’re just mocking and harassing different people from you.
I think that in today’s world, some folks just consider Mormon’s “weird christians” or something, and thus consider them part of the majority, so essentially just give themselves a pass on oppressive actions regarding that religion.
But in fairly recent times (considering how new the religion itself is), Mormons have actually faced what was essentially attempted genocide… in the freaking US.
The Missouri Extermination Order in 1838 stated that all the mormons needed to either be exterminated or otherwise removed from the state of Missouri. And this happened in the United States.
Beyond all of that, doesn’t the idea of describing the mormons’ religious attire as looking like “a gay Irish baker” just kind of REEK of bigotry to you, Jason? Doesn’t the idea of suggesting that we could never allow a mormon to become president of the US also reek of bigotry to you? The idea that someone should never be allowed to hold public office because of their religion? Isn’t that, quite clearly, against some of the most fundamental principles of our country?
I think the line is the way you say it and what you say it about, not whether or not you’re allowed to criticism them. Near as I can tell, your opinion is that you cannot say anything negative about a wide variety of subjects without being “a bigot.”
Beyond all of that, doesn’t the idea of describing the mormons’ religious attire as looking like “a gay Irish baker” just kind of REEK of bigotry to you, Jason?
Yes? I’m not defending the stupid video, just pushing back on your definition of bigot.
More like if you took the exact same situation, replaced the religion with Christianity and your answer on whether it made you a bigot was different, it makes you a hypocrite.
Religious freedom does not imply freedom from criticism or mocking.
There is a significant difference between mocking an idea and exhibiting prejudice towards a specific person. While I would strongly disapprove of someone calling a Muslim person “towelhead” it is valid to criticize and even mock the religious idea that one should not be allowed to draw a picture of the prophet. Those are two very different acts.
I have only seen people in this thread mocking/criticizing the ideas of the Mormon religion. That’s fair game.
That ended in 1990, correct? I’ve been told that there was a pretty sweeping change in the Temple endowment ceremonies. Like, a lot of the pretend throat-slitting, etc was toned down or excised.
It became more tame in the 90s. I’d be shocked if anyone could make it through a video of the whole ceremony including the movie in one sitting. It’s very, uh, sloooowwwwwww.
Might one say that the whole discussion of criticism or mocking is moot if you think that the whole concept of religion is a load of crap? At that point I don’t think it’s an issue, is it? I mean, if I don’t give a crap about your religion. If I don’t care what you wear or why you wear it. If I just think you’re all off your rocker… Am I some kind of bad person? Am I allowed to have that opinion?
Because honestly, I don’t care why you believe in what you believe in. I think you’re all deluded in your own special way. But deluded all the same. And hey, you can believe that about me too! No problem. I’m cool with that. You (the general you, not any specific you) can believe that I’m going to hell or whatever. It doesn’t bother me. You can make fun of me. You can scream and yell at me. No damn problem.
As long as you don’t mind that I make fun of your beliefs, you can make fun of my belief. My belief is that you (the general you) are making a big deal about a non-existent entity.
So are we cool here? Or are you going to call me names now?
Edit2: That’s the word I was looking for. Am I a bigot because I don’t believe in your (the general you) god? And if I make fun of your god I’m a bigot? Because if saying that god is bullshit then yes, in your definition of bigot that’s me.
What does “dick” have to do with it? Am I a bigot? If you believe in a god I guess, to you, I’m a dick. To me anyone who believes in a god is deluded. That’s not a “dick” thing. It’s a lack of belief in a god thing. I know people that believe in crystal healing. I know people that believe in angels. I know people that believe in demons. I know people who believe in the Planet Nibiru which is going to come and destroy our world. I know people that truly believe in the Holy Trinity. My mom is one of them.
I don’t care what you believe in. All religious faith is blind faith. And blind faith is noted for its blindness.
That comes down to the definition of “tolerant” or “tolerate”, though. And that definition is “to endure without repugnance”. So I would certainly say Rich is intolerant and, therefore, a bigot.
There seems to be some confusion, since I see numerous folks saying, “Am I allowed to think this?” regarding distaste for some certain religion (or all religions).
Of course you are. You are even allowed to voice that. But you are also a bigot.
Bigotry is not illegal. It’s protected by our constitution.
