Name a truly great board game from before 2008

You see, @tomchick has this running joke where he says good board game design was invented in 2008. It’s funny, and there’s also a point to be made about the steep ramp-up in quality that board games have taken since we were all kids. (I could argue that if you went by averages–given the absolute avalanche of games we get now–the quality has started dropping in the last several years… But that’s neither here nor there.)

Tom elaborated on his joke in the 2021 board game thread yesterday and said that whatever good games do exist from prior to 2008 were flukes–designers stumbling on something good without quite knowing what they were doing. As if Reiner Knizia just spent the first sixteen years of his career throwing pieces in a box and spitting out some rules, until that fateful day he laid his eyes on Pandemic and realized he could design the things first.

I come not to ridicule Tom, or to challenge him–it IS a funny joke, after all (if you’re a nerd like us). But I do like to learn about new games, and I do think that the hobby has gotten overly enamored of the New Hotnesses on the market. So…

Tell me about a board game first published before 2008 that still holds up perfectly well today!

I’ll start with a few:

James Ernest’s The Big Idea, a social game where you have to convince your friends to invest in your Coal-Powered Llama instead of the other guy’s new-fangled Edible Hot Dog. Most of Ernest’s Cheapass games don’t hold up, but this one absolutely does.

Kingsburg – For me the quintessential mid-weight Euro, with a perfect blend of luck and strategy.

Manila! It’s high stakes gambling by way of worker placement! This is one game I think is a classic that I haven’t seen reprinted in a long time.

Diplomacy.

Can I trawl through this thread and tell y’all which games obsolete whatever you post? :)

Seriously, though, great idea for a thread. What are the time-honored classics of boardgame design that predate the renaissance? Besides chess and Monopoly, of course.

-Tom

Axis & Allies was my favorite.

Ticket to Ride!

I loved this one as a kid Richtofen’s War

Found it on the shelf still shrink wrapped in my dad’s library and asked to open it.

Pre 2008 is full of great games. If you were going to argue a year for “modern” gaming I’d stick it somewhere around Puerto Rico (2002). By the time Agricola rolled around (2007) we were definitely there - so 2008 is past the mark.

Here is a list of only games that I’ve played during the Pandemic…

Lord of The Rings with Friends and Foes (2000) is arguably the grand-daddy of the coop genre - and still one of my favorite coops in terms of time/play. The game has a wonderful tension between public need vs private requirements - the group goals vs what cards you have to play. I’ve also admired the fact that many times I’ve played it (with different people) the group often breaks down on the last board, when everyone has a different idea on how to advance to the final goal.

Puerto Rico (2002) arguably kicked off a lot of the “modern” era of euro gaming - and though it originated a lot of modern mechanisms, it still holds up as a fantastic and competitive game. Only knock against it is the oodles of pieces that have to be laid out and cleaned up. Still regularly played in my game group.

Saint Petersburg (2004) is one of my favorite card games of all time - the purest expression I can think of in a game where you have to balance money vs points - immediate gratification vs end of game pay out. Simple rules, but the finely balanced cards (particularly with the must-have New Society expansion) make this a fantastic game.

Ticket to Ride (2004) took a basic set collection card mechanism and married it to a board and goals. Brilliant design, whose iterations are still best sellers.

Twilight Struggle (2005) remains one of the best two player games of all time. The game system is relatively uncomplicated - you can explain the rules in 15 minutes, probably less. The meat is the board and the cards - and your appetite for sacrifice and risk. Later designs in the same space have not surpassed it.

Caylus (2005) kicked off the worker placement genre - and despite attempts by the designers to “modernize it” with ill thought changes, it remains one of the standout games in that sub-genre.

Thurn and Taxis (2006) is arguably the next step beyond Ticket to Ride - where instead of “flushes” you have to collect “straights”, where the board defines what is sequential. Add in a bigger bust potential (if you can’t finish a straight), and its a more taut gaming experience.

Agricola (2007) was the next big worker placement game - taking the same mechanism and adding in the twist of the personalized hand of cards to customize the experience. Still hugely popular and a fantastic design.

Tribune (2007) is still an unmatched worker placement game in the tension that players are in - directly competing for resources and control of factions - add in the expansion which rebalances the variable victory conditions and its still one of the best worker placement games of all time.


If it wasn’t for the pandemic I’d add more games (in my friends collections or just require more people than I have had access to) such as Die Macher, Modern Art, El Grande, Alhambra, I’m The Boss, Power Grid, Race For The Galaxy, Saboteur, Shogun, Through The Ages, Tigris & Euphrates, Trans America/Europa, Goa, and tons more.

Classic rail stock game, still unsurpassed in its laser focus on the fundamentals.

Don’t even try to suggest that Y&Y makes the original obsolete.

One of the older Civ-lites that manages to combine trading, expansion, warfare, and technology in a reasonable time. Lots of newer games have tried the same thing, but none do a much better job.

Modern art may not be the first auction game, but it’s certainly still one of the best.

Looking over the stuff from AH, I think the simplest/best of the lot would go to War at Sea. You can argue that it’s essentially just a dice rolling game and I would listen to the argument. I think there is more to it than that. You could put Afrika Korps here and I wouldn’t argue too much.

Catan was what…95.

We just played Thurn and Taxis on qt3 discord and when we had finished we flushed the entire thing down the toilet.

Board games we cut our high school teeth on in the 90’s:

Talisman
Blood Bowl
Space Hulk
Line in the Sand
Tyrannid Attack

Probably others, but those are what stuck with me through the years.

What came out in 2008 that defined the boundary, @tomchick?

This. I now play A&A Online quite a bit.

Axis and Allies was the game for me in the 80s and 90s.

Risk (1959). Still have my game with wooden pieces.

How/where do you play on-line?

I have gotten sucked into ranked play.

That’s an incredibly low bar! I’ll put it a bit higher, and not only go for “holds up” but “does its thing better than anything released in 2008 or later”.

On the Eurogame side, I think what you need to look at are the evolutionary dead-ends. Games that just did not have credible follow-up. E.g. Agricola is a great game, but I don’t know that I can make the case that it’s not been equalled by any of the thousand worker placement games released since.

Age of Steam is an interesting evolutionary dead end (“Steam” is not even worth discussing as a worthy successor), since rather than spawning a genre it spawned an incredible expansion sub-culture. There must be like a hundred commercially printed expansions. It’s just an incredibly versatile game system. Today no game does crushing debt, brutal auctions, nor network building better than Age of Steam. And it does all three in one box!

Puerto Rico being an evolutionary dead end is a total mystery to me. It was the hottest game in the world. There is so much you could do with the role drafting + following mechanism. I love it, since much more than in worker placement games you need to be considering not just what you’re getting from the action you take, but what everyone else will get. It’s a much stronger form of interaction than the typical worker placement action space blocking.

But somehow that genre just fizzled out despite being objectively (objectively, I say!) more interesting than worker placement. There are only a couple of games worth bringing up in that discussion, and luckily they’re both pre-2008, Race for the Galaxy and Glory to Rome. Both clearly drew inspiration from PR, but went in wildly different directions. Both are still the best at what they do (fast-playing economic engine game for RftG, card game about special powers and synergies for GtR).

The action point game is another one that is mostly gone. I.e. the games where you’re no just taking 1-2 actions per turn, but maybe even up to 10 actions but then get to do nothing for a full agonizing round of everyone else taking their actions.

Maybe they went out of fashion for a good reason, it was always a bit prone to analysis paralysis, and the level of player interactivity it enables is too high for the modern palate. I think Torres was the crowning achiement of this lineage, especially when combined with the amazing spatial 3d building gameplay that I don’t think has been repeated. (Note. the Master rules are the only way to play Torres. The base game is nothing special).

Auction games fell out of fashion hard. To heathens, Amun Re was. the pinnacle of heavy auction games. They’re wrong, it is obviously Scepter of Zavandor (which also has one of my favorite exponential growth economic engines, and one of the best jockeying for turn order systems). Auctions are an amazing game mechanism when used to drive the gameplay. More modern game design tends to mostly use it as lazy balancing crutches, which is a lot less interesting.

I don’t even know how to describe Neuroshima Hex. It’s a multiplayer tactics puzzle wareurogame maybe? Nothing else like it exists. I don’t understand why, given how brilliant the concept and the system are.

18xx is an interesting case, because the number of games has just exploded in the last 10 years. So the “hasn’t been done better” bar is pretty high. This is basically a genre of economic and stock market simulations.

As much as I’d love to e.g. say that 1841 hasn’t been obsoleted, maybe it has by 1817. But there’s at least two that are unsurpassed. 1860 is a brilliant, brilliant 2p game. The only 2p 18xx worth playing. And I think it’s abou to get a boost in popularity since support is being added on 18xx.games. And 1846 is the best fast-playing 18xx. Again, a brilliant game exploring a part of the design space that the next 15 years just ignored.

As for wargames, I think it is obvious that the Card Driven Wargame peaked before 2008. Nothing has matched Paths of Glory or Empire of the Sun. And then there’s Titan… Maybe it’s not a wargame despite the subtitle being “monster fantasy slugathon cardgame”. It’s certainly not in any other recognizable genre, and never had anything even try to do the same thing let alone replace it. (just look at the glorius map). If I could get the old gang backtogether, I’d happily spend the next weekend doing nothing but playing Titan every waking hour.

Splotter deserves a category all its own. Every single one of their games is basically sui generis and defies any kind of classification. And their trifecta of Roads&Boats, Indonesia, and Antiquity is all from before 2008, and form a little bit of a continuity in about being all about logistics. You will not find better logistics boardgames than these three:

If Race for the Galaxy isn’t to be called a truly great boardgame, then there isn’t much more to discuss in my opinion…

El Grande (1995)

A game we always ask “why don’t we play this more often” whenever it hits the table. I don’t think I can name a more recent game that does this sort of area control in the same way better. Three scoring rounds, and points are equally valuable whenever you score them during the game. Having to assess what cards to discard at the start of the game, and which to play based on where you are in the turn order each round. Speaking of the cards, there are several tricksy things to do. I think I have only played with the Kønig & Intrigant expansion.

I think Talisman 2nd edition is simultaneously a hot mess of game design and a glorious experience the essence of which I still struggle to recapture decades later.

Also, I always thought Stratego was kind of elegant.