He’ll get more blowjobs from Americans - but since it’s universally acknowledged that Scandinavian girls look so much better, that’s not a good enough reason.
[…]and less AIDS.
If he joins the Peace Corp and have unprotected sex in the sub-Sahara African continent. Again, not really a good reason.
God, this thread is useless without P&R!
But if we accept your argument, they can’t get million dollar research grants to fuck co-eds in a lab environment to prove it.
“Him? Oh that’s Jakub. He likes to screw women in a very uncomfortable place.”
“You mean like a lab environment?”
Will the Uncircled Dong Rim please step forward?
Circumcision is foolish. Just let the child choose for himself.
Well, happily, being Jewish this isn’t even a question/option for me. One less worry in my life, if I ever have kids.
I though this was a Jewish dilemma. Why would a non Jewish person want to cut his son’s penis. would you do it to your daughter (yes it is being done right now somewhere in the world)?
Personally I don’t care about it being done to me one way or the other, but if I do have a son, there’s no way anyone is getting near his penis with a knife. Its not normal.
No, I have not been HORRIBLY GENITALLY MUTILATED AS AN INFANT.
No P&R what?
No, this isn’t a Jewish dilemna. At least, not in any circles I’m aware of. Some reading on Wikipedia says that some Reform/Reconstructionist Rabbis support not circumcising, but I just asked the Rabbi I work for, and he says that he doesn’t know of a single Rabbi in the URJ (Union of Reform Judaism) who supports not circumcising.
The Wiki article mentions that it (not circumcising) is most accepted in Humanistic Judaism, which I had never even heard of. Reading up on it from the prayerbooks and such I could find makes me chuckle. Needless to say, it’s not a large movement, nor does it have anything in common with traditional Judaism except for the name and some of the basic concepts.
So basically, if you’re Jewish, you circumcise your sons in a brit-milah, unless there are health reasons why it’s impossible (early birth, for instance). Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Orthodox, whatever.
Anyway, it’s not even close to comparable with female genital cutting, so please don’t drag that into the discussion. :)
I wish I had somebody dictating what surgical procedures I should put my kids through as well. Makes life easier.
Using Saras examples I can see how “sorry 'bout the mutilation, but mommy just wanted you to forego teasing in school” is much worse than “sorry about the mutilation, but this book says it’s a risk you just have to take”.
Like I said in the last P&R thread on the subject, over here only a surgeon is allowed to do it and there’s a movement amongst surgeons to refuse to perform uneccessary (from a medical view) surgeries, so jew or moslem will soon have to go without.
I wish I had someone dictating my morals to me.
Oh wait. I do. His name is Hanzii.
Yes, refusing to deliberately mutilate the genitals of helpless infants in order to appease their parents is a prime example of moral intolerance. No doubt about that! An evil mustache-twirling dictator, this Hanzii type…
Moral relativism is fun.
Don’t compare male circumcision to female and don’t push your morals on me… give people the freedom to decide for themselves. Oh, wait. Give people the freedom to let others (just not “me”) decide for them.
We always impose our morals on other, that’s what civilized societies do. We try to find the right place to draw the line between personal freedom and what we as a society will allow - every country does that, so don’t act like it’s just me.
We just disagree on where to draw that line. My country did it with letting rabbis and other “amateurs” performing genetial surgery, perhaps the line will be drawn further by not letting anybody perform that surgery because our foremost experts deem it purely cosmetic/cultural.
Well in my circle it is a dilemma. I know one couple who did not circumcise their son. My sister and her husband swore after circumcising their first son not to do it again. In a discussion with a bunch of friends some time ago many said that they are not sure about it. My grandfather - a former Satmer chasid and a rabbi is against it. So it is a dilemma.
Sorry, but I don’t see the difference between male and female genital cutting. In both cases a babe’s genitals are being cut.
Consider this - Circumcision current form (including ‘Pria’ - I am not translating this to spare all of you the mental anguish) is only a few hundred years old. There is no mention of cutting penises in the bible.
Yes, because male circumcision is mutilation. Obviously. This is why there is such a public outcry about it, fed by the dozens of studies showing its terrible, terrible effects.
Moral relativism is fun.
Don’t compare male circumcision to female and don’t push your morals on me… give people the freedom to decide for themselves. Oh, wait. Give people the freedom to let others (just not “me”) decide for them.
Yeah, because the country at large has the right to decide whether it’s right for me to circumcise my children, but I don’t. Makes total sense. Just like the country has the right to decide whether my wife gets an abortion, what school I send my kids to, the clothes I buy them, and every other aspect of being a parent that a child could possibly resent.
I mean, it’s not like parents are guardians of their children or anything. No, that role is taken by society and by the children themselves, in this wonderful world!
We always impose our morals on other, that’s what civilized societies do. We try to find the right place to draw the line between personal freedom and what we as a society will allow - every country does that, so don’t act like it’s just me.
We just disagree on where to draw that line. My country did it with letting rabbis and other “amateurs” performing genetial surgery, perhaps the line will be drawn further by not letting anybody perform that surgery because our foremost experts deem it purely cosmetic/cultural.
We impose our morals on eachother, but to me, part of the ideals of a Democracy is that “we as a society” can’t impose willy-nilly. There has to be a good, solid reason for it before said society can mess with whether or not a parent can circumsize a son or not.
The line of letting rabbis perform genital surgery is a different line anyway; it’s a line defined not by circumcision, but by surgery.
Thankfully, your hypothetical case would end up being thrown out by any semi-decent judge in the United States. So I don’t need to worry about that, either.
That’s very interesting, since it’s one of the fundamental commandments of Judaism, on a level above little things like keeping kosher, Shabbat, and Yom Kippur.
No offense to your circle, but I don’t believe someone can consider themselves an observant Jew and not circumcise their male children.
Sorry, but I don’t see the difference between male and female genital cutting. In both cases a babe’s genitals are being cut.
… Right. How bout before you comment on a subject, at least do the LCD of research, looking it up on Wikipedia.
Because you’re wrong.
Consider this - Circumcision current form (including ‘Pria’ - I am not translating this to spare all of you the mental anguish) is only a few hundred years old. There is no mention of cutting penises in the bible.
Again, wrong. Priah came about as a reaction to the Hellenists in the time of the Second Temple. That’s not a few hundred years old, that’s around two thousand years old.
Again, a quick check of Wikipedia would have told you that.
However, there is most definately mention of circumcision in the Torah. Genesis 17:1-14, 21:4, 34:14-16; Leviticus 12:3; Exodus 12:48 among other places.
Well I’m not an observant jew. My grandad is however.
Wiki is not my source.
Also, even if it said in the bible: “Yoav - cut your son’s penis or burn in hell” I wouldn’t do it…
So your grandfather is an observant Jew who doesn’t follow the Torah, the Talmud, or the rabbinical courts.
That totally makes sense.
Awesome…In the space of a page, Aaron and marxeil have managed to turn this into a thread that shall resonate throughout P & R history.
Aaron: there’s a reason why the US is the only developed country in the world that routinely circumcises its male children. That’s because circumcision is bullshit. Routine circumcision in the US started in the mid-1800s as an effort to stop American male children from masturbating. It didn’t work, obviously.
Other countries don’t circumcise their male babies because they have all judged that circumcision doesn’t have sufficient benefits to justify the unnecessary procedure. Circumcision is a big waste of time and money and a constant needless risk. But it’s profitable to the healthcare industry, so they keep doing it.
It’s funny that you refuse to equate male circumcision with female circumcision just because the male variety is routine in your religion. You hold blind rage against female circumcision because you obviously haven’t looked into the issue yourself, and just feel what some feminists in the US tell you to feel. Female circumcision happens in many parts of Africa, and women there see it as an integral part of their womanhood. For them it is a very special rite of passage, carried out and carried on by women. There are varying levels of female circumcision, and the image of the barbaric, forced, Arab-run version of female circumcision where they cut out the whole kit and caboodle is completely atypical and rare when compared to the larger scope of the process. All those circumcised African women would hold American women in the same disregard that Americans feel for uncircumcised men. Uncircumcised men, by the way, are about 95% of the world’s population.