Fluffybunny and I just completed a pretty exciting 1v1 duel. We both recorded and narrated our turns and discussed the game afterward as well.
Here’s the playlist:
This change just popped into my head a few weeks ago. The weird thing is that I wanted to solve this problem years ago (that building specialists in higher-level buildings was the same as in lower-level buildings), and I came up with mediocre solution that specialists build faster in higher-level buildings. It’s pretty opaque (hey, there’s a loading hint about it!), but I just didn’t think of the obvious solution that there are three levels of buildings and three levels of specialists, so bumping up the starting level is easy to grasp and feels right. (Maybe my problem was that there used to be four levels of buildings?)
Sometimes it just takes years to find the simplest solutions, and I love that we can make tweaks like that now. (I had to stop playing Civ 3/4 because if I thought of good ideas, it was too late to do anything about it.)
I just wanted to drop in here and say that these are fantastic. You guys are both really good at articulating what you’re doing and what you’re planning and why and how. I’m working my way slowly through the series and I can’t wait to see how it turns out.
Hmm, this must be what it’s like to watch sports…
One idea that came about as a consequence of this change –
I wonder if it’s worth exploring capping specialists by culture – e.g. to go beyond Apprentice in an Odeon, you’d need to be Developing Culture for Master Poet and Strong Culture for Elder Poet. Could make culture more important, but also might make things more complex for no reason.
Or similarly for Barracks/Ranges and Officers. (requiring Developing for Master Officers and Strong for Elder Officers)
It’s a bit awkward that some buildings require Developing for the first tier (Ministry) but others don’t (Odeon), though so it might be hard to clearly explain to players. Barracks/Ranges also are weird in that they don’t have higher tier buildings but do have higher tier specialists.
Thanks for the kind words! I think the “see both perspectives” is really great, though recording and narrating every turn is a pretty big lift (huge thanks to fluffy for recording each of his turns as well!). (And often, at least for me, requires figuring out what I want to do in the turn first, then replaying the turn actually recording so you don’t have to sit through 30 minutes of me undoing and figuring out what I actually want to do). It’s also like 10h+ of video, so … not very accessible.
I’m exploring whether a format where each player “checks in” every 10 turns and narrates a quick update on the state of the game could work as well.
Ultimately I’ve love if OW natively supported replays, so you could easily watch a replay of the game after it finished without having to record, particularly to see how somewhat handles combat. Patches break what-happened-last-turn replay functionality and even cloud duels span months (and thus multiple patches) so it can be hard to see what happened without recording.
That said, I’m super grateful for all the MP support and functionality in what is ultimately probably a game that is played in single player by 95%+ of its player base. I do think there’s space for a compelling, accessible turn-based asynchrous multiplayer game out there (e.g. imagine a simplified version of Old World that could be playable as an ethically priced mobile game – though of course part of the charm of Old World is its deep complexity and interlocking interactions).
One thing that surprised me was seeing the undo button being used in a multiplayer game! But I was pleasantly surprised, because the undo button wasn’t just helpful for me learning the game, but it had become an integral part of how I played. I would routinely make test moves to see if I had enough orders, or check different results for events to verify the implications, or especially to work out various solutions to any given tactical situation. I played Old World like a boardgame, routinely moving the pieces around to check stuff before “locking in” my actual move.
So not having that in multiplayer was a difficult adjustment. I understood why, of course, but it still made it difficult to transition to multiplayer games, even when I was just playing friendly co-op.
But now you can use undo in multiplayer! That’s awesome! Are there any checks on this? I don’t care when I’m playing with friends, but I guess there’s no way to keep it from being abused if you’re playing with people you don’t know? Personally, I have no problem with the trade-off, but I wonder, @alcaras, if it’s been an issue among those of you who play a lot of multiplayer?
There are no checks on it – some events have changed to not give you traits until the following turn (so you can’t just undo to get the “right” outcome for an event). I think some RNG has also been fixed on turn start (e.g. so you can’t undo to find which horse wins in that racing event).
But it’s possible to abuse undo to scout to find goody huts early or to force march a scout all over your opponent’s lands and then undo. The community norm / expectation is “don’t do that” but there’s no way to enforce it and I don’t think there’s a way to do so without pretty significant game changes.
Another Cloud Duel. Tried something different this time – instead of narrating each turn, we do “situation reports” every 10 turns or so where we each review what’s going on.
We also had a lengthy post-game discussion after the game as well.
Continuing to be in love with all the interlocking systems this game has.
Added some tabs to my reference spreadsheet:
👑👪🎓 Nations, Families, and Archetype Tendencies
-
This tab easily shows which archetypes are available for which families for each nation – and importantly, which archetypes have no easy source for each nation.
-
This is a subtle but important aspect of Old World.
-
Every family has Archetype Tendencies. If not influenced by the player (e.g. through heir education; see Jobs tab), families will tend to have characters of these archetypes.
-
These tendencies are 10x as likely for one or two archetypes and 5x as likely for two archetypes.
-
For example, the Landowner family is 10x as likely to get Builders. That means you’ll often see Landowner Builders when you have a Landowner family.
-
This fits in with nations in that not every nation has access to every family – so, as Persia, for example, you’ll rarely see Builders since none of your possible families have tendencies for them.
-
Or, as Egypt, if you don’t take Riders, you won’t have many characters that can serve as Agents, since you won’t have many Schemer or Hero characters.
-
As you think about your governors, generals, and the composition of your council, it’s important to keep these family archetype tendencies in mind.
-
Cells in dark gray have none of the four families for that nation having an archetype tendency for that archetype.
-
Keep in mind you can have 3 of the four families so if there’s only a single family for that archetype for your nation, and you don’t have that family… you rarely see that archetype.
-
How to read this spreadsheet:
- Row units attack column units and do the damage listed in the cell.
- For example, a Pikeman attacking a Cataphract does 10 damage.
- But a Cataphract attacking a Pikeman only does 3 damage.
-
Note this doesn’t account for
- Promotions, Family Bonuses, Territory Bonuses
- Melee Horse’s +25% Flat Terrain Bonus or any Terrain effects
- Unlimbered Units’ Defensive Penalty
-
But, as a general rule of thumb, should be useful.
-
If there’s anything inaccurate let me know – I did some hacky IF statement and regexp magic to generate this, so I might have gotten something wrong!
A quick reference version of the above – if you’re facing X, what should you (ideally) have to respond with?
I had to log in and say damn dude. Awesome stuff.
Another cloud duel with situation reports and a (much briefer) post-game discussion between Frederik and I:
Frederik tries a different strategy here – opting for an Orator leader start.
Fired up a campaign in this one again and immediately had the same first impression of medium/large maps I did the first time I played it, there needs to be a way to zoom out more.
In AOW 3 or Hegemony III just to pick a couple random examples that come immediately to mind I can zoom out far enough to easily see the entire map.
Why would you not make this possible in OW?
The main branch has been updated!
Notable changes:
-
Improvements to performance and AI
-
Coin Debasement now costs Money for Upkeep and Monetary Reform costs Civics
-
Projects that become invalid can no longer be rushed (i.e. when a Scholar governor leaves a city)
-
Improvements that give Legitimacy now give Orders in No Characters mode
-
Events now correctly grant bonuses and penalties when at maximum strengths or weaknesses
-
Many bug fixes
Awesome!
I’ve been on a 100% Elden Ring diet since March and I’m finally cooling down and looking for something to tide me over until DLC. Enter Old World.
I checked just now after installing it on my new rig to see how many hours I’ve put in since first purchasing it in early open beta or whatever. Nearly 2,000 hours!!! And none in more than 6 months.
Yeah, I really love this game and I believe I’ll continue to love it for a long time. Right off the bat I can tell there’s been a LOT of new events and I’m looking forward to that.
I feel like this game has totally replaced the jones I used to feel for the Civ games. I actually like that it’s focused on the one era. Most of all, I really enjoy the style of play with the orders system, and the collection and production of resources always feels ‘right’.
For me, it’s the stuff you said, as well as the unique way it situates personal narratives in a geopolitical context. No game has done that as well as Old World.
I just binged on House of Dragons over the last week or so, and the whole time, I was thinking about how no game could support stories like this so well as Old World: personal, internecine, domestic, and international drama, all at once, all interrelated. Crusader Kings can churn up that stuff in its spreadsheets, but it comes so naturally and elegantly to Old World.
And, yeah, it makes it hard to go back to regular ol’ 4Xs, doesn’t it?
I got an email from Mohawk games just now! That’s exciting. It reminded me: Oh yes, I have owned this game since launch, when I abandoned it after a few days.
Just ducking in to ask: Does it have a better tutorial yet? I remember Tom Chick asking so many questions that I was also wondering about at the time, and thinking, Tom has the stamina to learn all this, but I sure don’t. If the game doesn’t have a good information on the interface and in the tutorial to teach me these things, there’s no way I’ll make a Herculean effort like Tom does to learn it all myself by asking questions on Qt3 and experimenting, etc.
Not my place to say whether they are good or not, but we now have two sets of tutorials, one is a traditional scripted tutorial (press here, then press here) and the other is a set of premade maps which play out just like regular games but with dynamic tutorial events based on when you need to know different pieces of information.
Are any more expansions or anything of the sort planned?
Definitely enjoyed what I got!
Yes!!!