My wife, who is ex-JW, says that there is no way to stop her. It’s too ingrained in her personality. Just try to ignore it. Which you already know. Sorry to be unhelpful.
Would humor be helpful? “Now auntie, you know I’m a happy heathen going to the bad place, don’t let me corrupt you!” Etc etc.
(I’m guessing probably not.)
It’s especially tough not only because the people proselytizing to you have a sincere worry about you but because it’s also performing a certain role for themselves as they approach that last unknown bridge, as all that time and energy invested in a certain system of beliefs is about to be paid in full, one way or the other. That last bit makes it especially difficult to confront them.
You might try allowing her the ‘freedom’ to harangue you for half an our on a Sunday as a grace, if you can stand it, but then otherwise just tell you that you ‘don’t like discussing religion’ and just dismiss her outside of the prescribed times. That way you can make it clear you’re not totally blowing her off and attacking her, but also drawing some strict lines where you’re just not going to engage with her. The ‘cost’ is committing to listening to her for half an hour (or whatever amount of time), but i’d chalk that up more to helping her rather than her “helping” you. The time she spends with you is going to make her feel better.
There is the other side though. My recollection is that JWs had the 144k people get to go to heaven and no more and then that number slid, that’s pretty tough to reconcile with God’s Truth etc. Kinda like Catholics and eating meat on Fridays, are you fuckers expressing the inviolable word of God or just a bunch of dudes making shit up as needed?
Like everything in the Bible it’s all fuzzy wuzzy since there’s no authoritative belief system (it’s extremely strange to me that everyone takes every word of the New Testament as equal value as the actual words of Jesus, but you know, whatevs), but that’s from the Book of John of Patmos that quite probably shouldn’t have been in the Bible to begin with (where he says the 144k, which is 12,000 x 12 tribes of Israel, and a common theme of many Christian sects is believing that they are now the real Tribes of Israel).
But it’s in there so good luck figuring it out - oh wait, it’s obviously allegory. Except wait, it’s in the Bible so it’s 100% literally true, wait, let’s make a new sect now because nobody is taking this stuff seriously.
Right, but I reject the whole idea of religion if things are just up for grabs. None of it is rational or reasonable so either you have the magical truth of existence or you are just a crackpot. If your doctrine, which is a salad of silliness broadly, is also frangible inside your own cult then fuck off with that entirely. Either commit to your story or read a science book.
It’s more fun to see everything in much broader terms. Jehovah’s Witnesses of course has millennialism that’s long been a feature of Christianity, but the underlying moralism that undergirds the desire for the End Times is almost surely at least in part a response to Gilded Age politics and morality in the US at the time. And the moralizing undercurrent of American Protestantism comes from those Puritanical roots, which themselves come from Calvinism and the theological horror of sola scriptura, ect.
Fun is relative though. I had too many people attack me and saw too many decent people, in the case of JWs, get consigned to a life of baby pumping and forced ignorance to take it lightly
They absolutely make up whatever they need. You only have to look at the distinctions of different Mennonite and Amish Orders and sects. For the former, things range from owning cell phones and cars and wearing everyday clothing all the way to a more close resemblance to Amish culture. And even for the latter, there are strange items and possessions along the way that were deemed okay because, “God presented it to us.” Like, okay well now you can have lights on the front of your buggy.
There is no sense nor rhyme or reason to it. Man has changed religions and beliefs from the get go to fine tune what they want their congregations to be and act like.
So back to @Sharpe 's question. Man I really wish I could offer better advice here. I have evangelical family but thankfully they are somewhat distant. I’ve generally always used my one tactic of nodding along, keeping mostly quiet and changing the subject to mundane things to get by. “I heard uncle Bob broke his hip last year, how’s he getting on now?” “Can you believe this weather? Maybe God can work with it a bit.” “Are they going to repave the street this year? Those potholes are pretty bad.”
I hate to say it this way, but dealing with zealots is a bit like dealing with a child. A child might cry and while forever about that one thing they want. But a little distraction can certainly get their mind working elsewhere and make your day easier. Sometimes you have to throw in something they want to discuss but isn’t 100% church or faith related.
The smart ass in me wants to also tell you to queue up something like Handmaid’s Tale when you guys sit down in front of the TV. Or a nice long documentary on Jonestown.
If only 144k people can get into Heaven why are they actively worsening the odds for themselves?
I understand how we got here and don’t mean to thread cop but let’s keep in mind this is an “Everything else” thread about a personal challenge, not a general thread about religion or JW’s which would belong in P&R.
Good point!
@Sharpe how hard would it be for you to not really engage with the theology and just let it slide? I can imagine it’s a tall ask, but as you indicated, you’ve indicated a willingness to take care of the old bird. Letting her preach at a willing recipient might do a lot for her well-being.
My two cents here, but I think the kindest, best option is simply to suck it up and accept that this is going to be part of your relationship with your aunt.
As an engineer, such “mechanical” structures to the discussion do appeal, but they have the tendency to offend, as you are essentially telling her up-front that you intend to ignore her.
But running down that road a little bit, might there be some utility in asking her what SHE wants out of these conversations? Beyond the obvious, of course.
“Auntie, I was raised as a Witness, so I know most of the points you’ve been making. I haven’t been responding much because I didn’t think you’d be interested in my reasons for leaving the faith, and I don’t want to offend you. But we seem to be having the same one-sided conversation and I don’t want to be rude; would you prefer more debate from my side?”
Role-play out a diverting scenario, and return to that scenario every time she starts in.
You’re struggling with a particular Bible verse, and you don’t want to move on to doctrine until you’re SURE about this one. You’ve actually dreamed about it every night this week, hearing the Lord’s voice, but your waking struggle never resolves — what is He trying to tell you? Does your aunt have any insight?
And that verse is Isaiah 36:12.
I’ve already been doing the passive/diplomatic/deflection/do-not-engage route. The effectiveness varies. The real variable is how intense my aunt is on her messaging on any particular day. For now, the situation is manageable. It was helpful to discuss and get various points of view. There is no “solution” this type of situation due to the entrenched and rigid beliefs but I think the situation can be managed.
She’s very far into a life of it so I feel for you. “Entrenched and rigid,” in her beliefs is saying it very, very nicely.
Hang in there, man.
Good luck, @Sharpe! I think it’s always been hard to maintain comity between generations, but it seems especially hard in these times and on these kinds of subjects. But it’s always worth making the attempt! I’m sure she needs familial connection and support, especially at her age. She probably doesn’t realize she’s jeopardizing that with her behavior; she may be unable to even conceive of that fact. There are absolutely limits to what you can and should tolerate, but you are doing good by exercising that tolerance and being there with her.
Right? I have so much to say, and this is relevant to many things in my own life, but Qt3 is one of the last places I’d feel comfortable discussing it. : (
But I’m glad @Sharpe started the thread and I’m enjoying (most of) the discussion.
It is an interesting and, dare I say it, fun thing to think about. Not to make light of your situation though, Sharpe. But I guess having grown up in the south, and now being married to a good Catholic girl, I’ve just always kind of accepted the whole religious thing as being part of the world I occupy. Air has a certain nitrogen content; my life has a certain religious content.
I’m not a believer, it’s just never made sense to me. But so many people I respect and care about do believe, and I respect that. My wife, who I mentioned is Catholic, felt very strongly that we should be married in the church. I had no objections, but I did have to jump through some hoops, since as I mentioned I’m not Catholic. I had to attend this weekend camp thing, which was a joke, having clergy members tell me to abstain from sex before marriage. Also, I signed an actual contract with the church to raise my kids in the Catholic faith. Seeing as how I don’t want Vatican attorneys breathing down my neck, I comply.
My mom is happy with the whole situation. She never gives me grief about my eternal soul, but she mentions how nice it is to see me in church now and then. I attended my kids’ christening, and one kid is a full member of the Catholic church, the other soon will be. I figure kids need a moral and ethical upbringing, this one is as good as any.
I know, none of this is any help at all. But as others have mentioned, your aunt really is concerned about your eternal soul. She believes she’d be dooming you to a horrible afterlife of torment by not hectoring you to take steps to avoid it. Try to think about it in those terms, that it’s an expression of love, and maybe it will be easier to let all the other stuff roll off your back. Her heart’s in the right place, at least.