Some RPG design lessons from Divine Divinity

This may be the most out-and-out fun game I’ve played all year. It’s currently vying with Jedi Outcast for my personal GOTY slot.

  1. Try to balance the linear main quest with the nonlinear subquests.

For a good portion of Divine Divinity, you have to collect seven different people and bring them together – this amounts to seven quests that must be solved to advance the plot (and some of these quests generate their own subquests). You know exactly where you stand to progress in the game, but you are also at leisure to wander off and do whatever the hell you want before finishing the main quest. This is an exceedingly congenial place to be in in a CRPG – a good balance between a sense of forward purpose, and a sense of open-endedness, I-am-master-of-my-fate. (It’s similar to the great second chapter of Baldur’s Gate II.) What I particularly like about the “7-part” main-quest is that if one part of it is stumping you, you can let it rest for a while and go do one of the other 6, then come back later.

  1. Neat little things are neat.

The world is packed with little subquests to stumble on, hatches to mysterious cellars hidden under piles of wood, clever but-not-too-hard puzzles, gardens and crypts and cemeteries and sewers and all sorts of stuff. This, combined with the fairly robust object-manipulation system that encourages experimentation, means there is always something to do. The world just feels dense. Though it’s not dynamic and alive in that full-blown, autonomous-NPCs-fluctuating-economy way that I long for, it is packed with more detail than the average CRPG. And the game isn’t so huge (a la Morrowind) that the little side thingies can’t have a personal touch too. Some examples of this intangible “neatness” are Nericon’s garden, the puzzle required to sneak into Sir Patrick’s treasure chamber, and a subquest involving a missing imp you have to track down. The closest thing I can compare it to is the old board game Talisman, where there was always another card to overturn, another cool item to find, etc. The HOMM games have some of this too.

  1. If you have to have lots of prescripted dialogue, make it clever.

In a subsection of the game you are forced to do a series of errands for an obnoxious Duke. This sequence goes on just long enough not to be irritating, and any annoyance is dispelled by the fact that your dialogue options often include memorable putdowns and backhanded insults when you talk to the Duke. It’s a nice little touch.

  1. Maybe lowered expectations help?

I wonder if the “Serious Sam” lowered-expectations bonus is in effect here. If this had been the next major Bioware IE game, or the next Elder Scrolls game, maybe it would have been denounced as dinky and minor. Maybe my defenses were lowered by the stupid title and the retro (but by no means ugly) 2D graphics. I dunno. Whatever the reason, this game was a very pleasant surprise, and has given me some of the most satisfying and relaxed multi-hour gaming sessions I’ve had in a long while. It’s simultaneously fun and addictive (the two don’t always go together).

The acid test for me is, how do I react when I am introduced to a big new geographical area? In some CRPG’s, I just get tired – “more of the same, more NPC’s to talk to, more monsters to slay.” But in DD, I get excited each time I find a big new area. It’s not that the gameplay mechanics are anything great – they aren’t. It’s standard Diablo-esque hack-and-slash. I think that, like Half-Life (weird analogy I know), a convergence of intangibles (many of which are merely stylistic) makes the whole seem like more than the sum of its parts.

Yes, the title is so appallingly bad that I’m sure many will be completely turned off to the game. But it’s pretty amazing. I thought the actual end game dragged a bit, but I had a great time getting there.

The way I see it, it’s got a bit of everything for the RPG crowd. It’s like Diablo but with meaningful quests. It’s like BG series but without the save/reload on every 3rd battle. It’s got Fallout type humor and old-school Ultima item detail and exporable worlds.

That name is killing it.

Guys, I’m trying really hard to like it but am on the verge of returning it. My two main gripes are:

  • Running speed is unbearably slow. It’s bad enough for my character to run slow, but it’s really bad in the in-game “scenes,” making them really drag.

  • It’s hard to find your way around inside. Why are doors so hard to see? Visually, the game is rich, but not very clear. I like exploring in rpgs, but the interior/underground environments in DD are a pain to navigate.

I’m still in the early stages, but these two biggies and a lot of niggly little ones are dissuading me from going further. Should I stick it out?

Hold down “Alt” and doors will become visible in north and west walls.

Yeah, running speed is slow, but I don’t much mind.

IMO you should stick it out. Once I got out of the starting village and saw the wider world, I found it really started to click.

I tried DD for an hour or two this weekend. I’m with Lutes, and I agree with #4 on Cameron’s list: this game, to ME, seems to benefit more from the “we expected it to suck” syndrome.

Animation is okay, but it seems like everything is in molasses. If there’s a difference between “smooth” and “slow-mo” it’s lost in this game. The perspective is too low (Ultima 7’s is really up high), which makes it hard to tell exactly where things are in relation to each other sometimes. Graphics are sharp, but indistinct–objects blend together and without playing pixel-hunt, it’s hard to know what’s worth your attention and what’s not. Combat suffers most from the slow animation - it feels downright awkward. The world doesn’t seem very alive: everything stops dead for you to watch a painfully slow scripted sequence, and people aren’t actually going about their daily business, but just standing around waiting to be spoken to. I just have the overall impression that the whole world is holding its breath waiting for me to trigger it.

I’m not that impressed by the dialog. It’s okay, but it’s not great. Again, considering this game’s heritage and it’s horrible name, maybe we all just expected something far less literate.

To me, the whole thing seems thoroughly average. Granted, that’s a sight better than what was expected.

Again - this is in no way a review. Just my quick impressions after playing for only a couple hours. I don’t think I’m going to put much more time in it, though. It seems more like a chore to play than it should be, and it’s not like I don’t have a stack of other games to play. If I could turn the speed of everything in the game to twice what it is, that might be enough to grab me.

The music is great, though. I’ll give ya that!

The game is great. I hate to say it, but it beats MW for me. It’s seriously my pick for crpg this year. Its got all I need in a crpg. And I thought 2d crpgs were the past. This game proved me wrong.

etc

DD is an “old skool” CRPG, IMHO, and to really appreciate this game you’ve got to recall some of the old games and what we went through to play em.

Sure, DD has got its share of quirks, bugs, nuances, and irritations that in the old days we (I) just tolerated, move on, and enjoyed the damn game for its true merits. And DD has many merits in the spirit of “old skool” CRPG’ing: detailed backstory/history, huge interactive world, tons of interesting NPC’s with their own little agendas, oozes with charm, etc etc…

To me, gripes like “it’s too dark” or “voice acting is bad” or “the graphics suxx0rs!” or “the pathfinding is bugged” are easily overlooked with a CRPG as deep as this one. Hell, a lot of this stuff didn’t even exist in my all-time favorite CRPG (The Magic Candle)! Pathfinding? Um, you had to use arrow keys to move around–TMC didn’t have mouse support. Voice acting? Animations? Poor graphics? Hehe, yah right…how’s CGA strike you?

Anyway, I think a lot of the “negatives” I’m seeing are relatively minor in the grand scheme of a CRPG with this much charm and depth. This thing is loaded with CRPG goodness if you can just get past the minor annoyances and enjoy the game for what it’s worth: a deep, epic computer role-playing experience in a world that feels more robust, more “alive”, than most CRPG’s released within the past decade. IMHO. :)

>The world doesn’t seem very alive: everything stops dead for you to watch a painfully slow scripted sequence, and people aren’t actually going about their daily business, but just standing around waiting to be spoken to. I just have the overall impression that the whole world is holding its breath waiting for me to trigger it.

In fairness, that’s the same in virtually every RPG. There have only been a handful of games that have tried to do more, only one of which was released in the past 10 years (Gothic, with the others being Ultimas 5-7).

In fairness, that’s the same in virtually every RPG. There have only been a handful of games that have tried to do more, only one of which was released in the past 10 years (Gothic, with the others being Ultimas 5-7).

The Magic Candle of 1989 had NPC’s that moved around depending on the time of day/night. I remember sitting my party down in taverns, parks, courtyards, docks, etc and hitting the WAIT button (passed game time in 5 minute intervals) just watching people come and go and chatting away with them… And the neat thing about TMC was that you could split your party and have them wander and/or wait in different parts of a town.

It’s still the most enjoyable and memorable CRPG I’ve played and it had CGA graphics, 8-bit sound, no text logging (used to keep a pen and note pad handy), no mouse support, unwieldy party/inventory navigation, etc. but the game was simply fantastic nonetheless.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Magic Candle is the best 8-bit CRPG that was not an Ultima. IMO it trumps classics like Questron, Legacy of the Ancients, Mars Saga, Phantasie.

I’m playing the demo and to tell the truth, I think the ‘click hotspot’ is outta whack. It seems like it’s in the center of the arrow instead of the tip. I did an experiment using the ‘light the 5 candles in order’ subquest, and it seems to be the case. And it’s driving me crazy, I click on a monster but in fact I’ve given a move order, and the mob gets in 2 or 3 whacks before I can fix it. Or I click on the ground, but the guy runs to another room because I clicked near a wall. It’s aggravating as heck.

DeanCo–

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Magic Candle is the best 8-bit CRPG that was not an Ultima. IMO it trumps classics like Questron, Legacy of the Ancients, Mars Saga, Phantasie.

Hear hear! Glad to see another Magic Candle fanatic out there. :) Most people look at me like I’ve got zuccini growing out of my ears when I say The Magic Candle is the best CRPG of all time.

Them: “Is that zuccini growing out of your ears?”
Me: “Yeah, want some? Dolt.”

Yeah, I can see your point. But if I want to play an old school crpg than I can just go to Underdogs and download one for free. I guess I’m in a pretty different position, having not played through Magic Candle or Ultimas 5-7.

I think it comes down to taste. I don’t find the writing in DD to be particularly good or interesting, and the world seems pretty generic. I guess these days in an rpg I want something with a distinct flavor, either in narrative or mechanics, and preferably both; DD has neither for me. I’m playing Icewind Dale II right now as well, and that world/story is infinitely (no pun intended) more engaging, just in terms of setting.

Or here’s a great example: I love Spiderweb Software’s crpgs. They’re just a tiny developer, but I like the Avernum games much more than DD. I find Jeff Vogel’s little fantasy world much more interesting and fun to play in.

But really, I envy you guys. I wish I liked it as much!

Avernum 3 is out and rocks.

I agree. But, dammit, I’m still waiting for a CRPG with a better ending than Questron’s.

If spiderweb ported avenum 3 to pocketpc, they would insantly be widely loved and respected and make some money too.

True, but I’m not talking about trying to create a simulated world or anything. Some basic idle animations and stuff would suffice. I dunno…it just “feels” overly triggered to me. Moreso than other RPGs (even those that don’t have a real “living world” thing going on, like Arcanum).

I tried again briefly, and I just can’t get past the negatives. Yeah, I know we put up with these flaws in our old RPGs. I certainly did, and I devoured many an old RPG in doing so. I’m just a lot bigger on “ease of play” now I guess. I can’t do as GuildBoss suggests and just ignore it and “move on.” Would that I could.

I’m with Lutes on this one. It’s not floating my boat.

Some basic idle animations and stuff would suffice.

Well, you get to see cats attacking rabbits. :)

Jason Levine:

True, Questron 2 had a great ending, not only in the actual climax of gameplay, but the cool parade you get when you win.

I suspect you’re thinking of the original Questron. I don’t recall the sequel having anything spcial at the end. (In fact, the game as a whole wasn’t a fit sequel. It was designed by the brothers who created the original game, but the design was implemented by SSI.

Peter

Yes, I was thinking of the orginal Questron. Never played Questron II.