The big difference here compared to those cases is that since this involved a search warrant, it means that it had to involve more than just a jackass cop.
It means that it actually had to be signed off by a judge.
And the other thing is that it’s not a poor black kid with no access to the Justice system. It’s a kid whose mom is a white lawyer. Which probably exacerbates that first problem, since I suspect that the judge would realize that they were serving a search warrant on the home of a lawyer… For…a calculator?
It’s not like I’m having a knee jerk reaction, refusing to believe cops do bad things. I’ve posted tons of crap in this thread about how bad it is.
But acknowledging that cops do bad stuff, all the time, doesn’t mean that I’m gonna accept any story that shows up. This story seems weird.
It’s possible it’s entirely made up but it’s also very possible to be true. Given the lies & cover-ups we see all the time from cops & even judges, it’s not like it’s really that far-fetched. Hard to prove either way at this point I’m sure.
One small part of realizing how corrupt our justice system is, is finding out how easy it can be to get a magistrate (not judge, in many jurisdictions) to sign off on a warrant.
Another small part of realizing how corrupt our system of justice is, is contending with the entirely Supreme Court-created systems of qualified and absolute immunity.
I’m pretty sure I’ve suggested in many occasions before: read Radley Balko’s stuff, be it his books, Cato Instutite, Reason and Washington Post columns, blog. Any and all of it.
But to pull that stuff against a successful lawyer?
Part of the corruption in our system is that the foljs who tend to get preyed upon are those who can’t defend themselves. Those who wouldn’t know their legal rights, and new able to fight back in court.
If this jus was just some random poor black kid, I’d have an easier time believing it (although the idea of the search warrant for a calculator still send very suspect).
But even a corrupt judge wouldn’t likely do this kind of thing to a lawyer. Because he’d just be inviting scrutiny.
If this happened, and his mom did nothing in response, it seems unlikely the actual cause was as simple as a calculator… But i find it hard to believe it would have happened at all. Not because all judges are perfect, but because i don’t think a judge would approve a search warrant like this over such a totally trivial crime, which could get him in trouble.
There is no convincing some people that the system is fucked up, so when people abuse it, manipulate it, overreach it’s still this weirdo the police must have had something because there is no way, no way! it could be something else.
Again, a big difference here is the involvement of a judge.
There are tons of bad, racist cops that act like evil idiots.
But once you involved a judge signing search warrants, it’s different. You aren’t likely to get that with mere knee jerk racism.
The judge is gonna know that he’s serving a warrant against a lawyer… And if he doesn’t, he’s going to be way the hell pissed when he finds out afterwards.
That said it is fine to be sceptical of individual claims, especially extraordinary ones, but understand the general situation.
Do I know for a fact his claims are true? No. Are his claims, in total, especially galling? Absolutely. Do I disbelieve him? No. Will I act as if his statement is absolute fact? Also no.
A broad general claim like this I put under less scrutiny than one that calls for a specific action, or singles out a specific individual. His does neither. So I am willing to accept it as presented until or unless evidence compelled otherwise.
Based on his tweets, I think his goal is to let people know that police presence on school grounds can feel like protection for one group and a constant source of terror for others. This might also suggest to schools that maybe throwing officers all over the place to protect kids is not as simple as they think it is. Police officers as a school resources is… complicated.
Oh absolutely! And for that reason I think it is worth considering his story as presented. Because I’ve seen enough to know that, while I can not verify the factual core of this specific example, the emotional message has merit. That the types of incidents he describes are real, and the consequences he emotes actually happen to some people.
Whether they happened to him specifically is irrelevant. What is important is, when talking of putting an armed police presence in a school, that this type of event will happen to some kids. And that absolutely needs to be considered in the conversation about police in schools.
Why? Is he calling for prosecution of an individual?
When taken in the context of the issue of armed police in schools, the types of stories he talks about do occur, the disparity does exist, and so when talking about increasing police presence in schools, as the vote was about, it is important that these things be considered.
And for whatever reason, people pay more attention to a story they can put a face on. So saying ‘this happened to me’ is more strongly responsive than ‘this kind of thing can hapoen’.
So in context of ‘we should consider these factors and consequences when putting armed officers into schools’, his story is absolutely valid. As all of the things he describes we know can and does happen.
Now, obviously, the flip side of that is that if his stories are proven false that can have a deleterious effect on the position he is taking. So while I can see his point, and do not need the story of a specific individual in order to empathize with the problem, I am not your average low information voter. So I don’t need his story to be true to know the core of his message is valid.
Others, less so. Someone who is not invested, or even moderately on the other side of his position, may be swayed by his story, but pushed farther away if untrue. That is why it is risky for him to claim so if untrue. That would be my objection.
But from the perspective of me, personally, considering his position on police presence in schools? I don’t need his story to be true to consider that perspective.
And to be clear, I have no reason to specifically think his story is untrue. The incentive structures are all wrong. you will have hundreds of people, more than a few racist, who will take it upon themselves to be internet sleuths on this, and try and prove his claim false.
And if there is evidence of that? He will be harassed and threatened, both online and in person. Additionally merely bringing up the issue exposes him to some level of that merely for daring to speak up.
So from a personal self interest perspective the incentives for him are not to speak out.
So even though the story is particularly heinous, nothing strikes me as in the realm of impossibility. Even though his mother was a lawyer. There is concrete proof that any given element of his story can and does happen. So, taken at face value, this would be an extreme but not outside the curve of plausible example. So with the incentives to not speak up lined up, I would venture to fall on the side that his story is more likely true than not.
It’s always going to be a struggle to get us white folks (who almost always get a fair shake and a second chance during run-ins with law enforcement and the justice system) to believe that systemic injustice exists for poor people and POC. Our first reaction is always disbelief, since everyone’s always so decent and solicitous to us.
As distasteful as it may be to consider, he also has monetary incentives purely from being in the limelight, as he encourages people to donate money directly to him (as opposed to some other, larger, cause).
Like I said, i suspect we’ll see more of this kid, and this stuff will be dug into more.
This whole discussion (which I did not read every word of, I got games to play) points up how hard it is to make progress on the subjects of racism and other kinds of pervasive discrimination. We’ve got no access to any hard evidence on this story, so people will tend to look at it and interpret it according to their gut reactions. For most of this on the forum, that reaction is to believe the worst of the police in this situation. For others, the reaction is try to determine whether everyone involved was acting rationally and see if the story holds up. For yet others, fortunately none on this forum that I know of, the reaction is to disbelieve the black dude. In any case, you can make an argument in support of that gut reaction without too much effort since all we really know is the story…no real evidence.
Now, translate that out of this (mostly) well behaved and thoughtful forum. It’s damn near impossible to have a reasonable discussion out in the wilds where all those different gut reactions cause people to ignore what anyone with a different reaction is saying. In this case there really isn’t any evidence, but even if there was, it’s generally pretty easy to rationalize away. And this is why it’s so hard to have these kinds of conversations, even if you’re not dealing with dyed-in-the-wool racists…all that’s required is a different gut reaction to let people rationalize their way into believing only what matches their own reaction.
If you want to be sad and angry, watch this Frontline episode about MS-13 on Long Island. Among other things it looks at how innocent unaccompanied minors fleeing gang violence in Central America are threatened by MS-13 here in the States and how the racial bias of police have alienated the communities they need to be working with to adrdress what is a real issue.
I bring it up in this context as there is a bit towards the end about how police in schools destroyed the lives of innocent kids by fabricating evidence of suspected gang association resulting in the unlawful detainment and deportation of good kids who did nothing wrong. At least one of the kids killed himself while being detained for months in a harsh facility with no access to his lawyers or family. While the unlawful detainment is ICE fuckery, it started with cops in school targeting kids based on race, fabricating bullshit evidence and getting judges to sign off.
Editing to add: When I say unlawful detainment, it’s not just because the evidence against them was bullshit, but because none of the processes required by law are being followed including notifying there lawyers or telling anyone where they are being held, etc.
