The Black Lives Matter movement


#1502

See, i can’t go that far.

What’s worse, is it turns out he lied about this, it’s going to be used to attack the credibility of every other case of police wrongdoing.


#1503

Why? Is he calling for prosecution of an individual?

When taken in the context of the issue of armed police in schools, the types of stories he talks about do occur, the disparity does exist, and so when talking about increasing police presence in schools, as the vote was about, it is important that these things be considered.

And for whatever reason, people pay more attention to a story they can put a face on. So saying ‘this happened to me’ is more strongly responsive than ‘this kind of thing can hapoen’.

So in context of ‘we should consider these factors and consequences when putting armed officers into schools’, his story is absolutely valid. As all of the things he describes we know can and does happen.

Now, obviously, the flip side of that is that if his stories are proven false that can have a deleterious effect on the position he is taking. So while I can see his point, and do not need the story of a specific individual in order to empathize with the problem, I am not your average low information voter. So I don’t need his story to be true to know the core of his message is valid.

Others, less so. Someone who is not invested, or even moderately on the other side of his position, may be swayed by his story, but pushed farther away if untrue. That is why it is risky for him to claim so if untrue. That would be my objection.

But from the perspective of me, personally, considering his position on police presence in schools? I don’t need his story to be true to consider that perspective.


#1504

And to be clear, I have no reason to specifically think his story is untrue. The incentive structures are all wrong. you will have hundreds of people, more than a few racist, who will take it upon themselves to be internet sleuths on this, and try and prove his claim false.

And if there is evidence of that? He will be harassed and threatened, both online and in person. Additionally merely bringing up the issue exposes him to some level of that merely for daring to speak up.

So from a personal self interest perspective the incentives for him are not to speak out.

So even though the story is particularly heinous, nothing strikes me as in the realm of impossibility. Even though his mother was a lawyer. There is concrete proof that any given element of his story can and does happen. So, taken at face value, this would be an extreme but not outside the curve of plausible example. So with the incentives to not speak up lined up, I would venture to fall on the side that his story is more likely true than not.


#1505

It’s always going to be a struggle to get us white folks (who almost always get a fair shake and a second chance during run-ins with law enforcement and the justice system) to believe that systemic injustice exists for poor people and POC. Our first reaction is always disbelief, since everyone’s always so decent and solicitous to us.


#1506

As distasteful as it may be to consider, he also has monetary incentives purely from being in the limelight, as he encourages people to donate money directly to him (as opposed to some other, larger, cause).

Like I said, i suspect we’ll see more of this kid, and this stuff will be dug into more.


#1507

This whole discussion (which I did not read every word of, I got games to play) points up how hard it is to make progress on the subjects of racism and other kinds of pervasive discrimination. We’ve got no access to any hard evidence on this story, so people will tend to look at it and interpret it according to their gut reactions. For most of this on the forum, that reaction is to believe the worst of the police in this situation. For others, the reaction is try to determine whether everyone involved was acting rationally and see if the story holds up. For yet others, fortunately none on this forum that I know of, the reaction is to disbelieve the black dude. In any case, you can make an argument in support of that gut reaction without too much effort since all we really know is the story…no real evidence.

Now, translate that out of this (mostly) well behaved and thoughtful forum. It’s damn near impossible to have a reasonable discussion out in the wilds where all those different gut reactions cause people to ignore what anyone with a different reaction is saying. In this case there really isn’t any evidence, but even if there was, it’s generally pretty easy to rationalize away. And this is why it’s so hard to have these kinds of conversations, even if you’re not dealing with dyed-in-the-wool racists…all that’s required is a different gut reaction to let people rationalize their way into believing only what matches their own reaction.


#1508

If you want to be sad and angry, watch this Frontline episode about MS-13 on Long Island. Among other things it looks at how innocent unaccompanied minors fleeing gang violence in Central America are threatened by MS-13 here in the States and how the racial bias of police have alienated the communities they need to be working with to adrdress what is a real issue.

I bring it up in this context as there is a bit towards the end about how police in schools destroyed the lives of innocent kids by fabricating evidence of suspected gang association resulting in the unlawful detainment and deportation of good kids who did nothing wrong. At least one of the kids killed himself while being detained for months in a harsh facility with no access to his lawyers or family. While the unlawful detainment is ICE fuckery, it started with cops in school targeting kids based on race, fabricating bullshit evidence and getting judges to sign off.

Editing to add: When I say unlawful detainment, it’s not just because the evidence against them was bullshit, but because none of the processes required by law are being followed including notifying there lawyers or telling anyone where they are being held, etc.


#1509

But that’s already starting from the wrong base, because anyone that’s ever dealt with human beings know most don’t act absolutely rationally under stress. And I would hope everyone here knows this and accounts for it. When police are involved, only one half of the interaction is (supposedly) trained to act properly under stress.


#1510

I don’t know how much I trust this Gregory McKelvey character.

The Gazette-Times reported that police launched an investigation of the dorm encounter and arrested McKelvey six days later. He was booked Sept. 30 into the Benton County Jail on suspicion of strangulation, assault, harassment and first-degree kidnapping, a felony, according to records and a jail mugshot provided by the Benton County Sheriff’s Office.
McKelvey posted bail, set at $132,500, the same day, said Deputy John Nordyke.

I think it is important to not just blindly believe every story told. I am sure growing up in a white neighborhood as a black kid, it was bad. I am sure he was held to a higher standard, and that there was institutional racism making his life harder. It is obvious, it is happening across the country.

But I also feel like this guy is a budding politician, and he is trying to get stories out there, for his cause. Trying to make things go viral. This whole thing reminds me of the “story time” youtube genre. We are talking about real events, but just played up for drama. Like, this story is probably 80% true.

He says he smoked pot in high school, I would guess the warrant was for that, and not the calculator? That would make more sense? I am sure the officer hassled him about the calculator that was stolen. (and as a black kid in a mostly white school, he was unfairly targeted) but as @timex said, getting a warrant for a stolen calculator belies belief. The officer could have given the judge some extra information on the warrant request “stolen school property” etc or suspected pot dealing in school, and the guy could have decided to go in guns drawn to teach the kid a lesson. I don’t think it is impossible that a judge wouldn’t grant a warrant for something like that. Some judges are more lenient to that sort of thing etc.

But, after reading a bit about this guy, seeing the arrest for domestic disturbance? He posted 132k bail same day? As a college freshman? He obviously grew up with some means.

Reading that thread again, he doesn’t really try to get the idea across that he was a poor black kid in a white school.

What he is saying is even more chilling than that. He was a black kid who was in the same economic level as his white peers, yet he was still treated like a criminal, because he was black. That I definitely believe.

I bring this up, because as someone who is behind the BLM movement, the metoo movement, it is important that we fact-check ourselves. We gotta have trust and understanding in the community, because it is very easy for “resistance grifters” like Michael Avenatti to come in and just make everyone look bad.

I mean, I would default to believing the guy, but I also understand why someone would want to pick apart this story a bit more.


#1511

It appears the case eventually was dismissed, but police and court records have been expunged, so it’s not clear how it was resolved.

There are a lot of black men that get arrested but not convicted, that’s part of the police harassment problem. I’d expect a number of black men have a disproportional amount of arrests due to being signaled out for shit they don’t bother other people for.

Look I don’t know why we think penalizing someone for not being poor and black and just black should be a thing… Middle class and upper class minority families still face unfair problems.

He’s a known activist. I am sure people have gone after him before. It’s not blind belief, it’s the ridiculous idea that even after knowing what he know, 100% fact, of seeing not just the police but their support system can absolutely be corrupt that we have someone show up and still say, still say, well that can’t happen as if you can say bullet in the back or it didn’t happen. That’s crazy. You can hope over to another topic and see how crazy and racist a judge can be. That’s a fact, not some oh gosh maybe… we have corrupt judges, police officers, freaking lawyers and the hurdle is pretty damn high for their victims… even now.


#1512

I don’t think @Timex is alone in thinking the story is a little fishy.


#1513

Oh I know there others. That’s part of the reason it’s as bad as it is in this country. Someone has to be blown away in their backyard holding a cellphone with video coverage before people believe.


#1514

You compare apples and oranges. Saying one isn’t believe able isn’t denying the injustice of the other.


#1515

I mean, I’ve personally, in this thread, pointed out tons of Injustice and police abuse, especially against black people, as i came to the realization that it really was that bad after seeing the cases of the past few years.

But that realization doesn’t mean I’m going to turn off my critical thinking and stop being skeptical of claims that make no sense.


#1516

No, these are related.

People have been tormented, harassed, belittled, and targeted for generations. There is nothing surprising about what’s happening today except the number of cameras has increased. So again, the hurdle is so high, show us footage or it didn’t happen.

I don’t know if this guy is telling the truth or why everyone was talking about high school and now we’ve switched to college which is somehow being equated to if this happened the other didn’t happen. That’s flat out not true. He could have very well experienced what he did in high school and got involved in a physical altercation at college. One has nothing to do with the other.

If people actually paid attention and had the critical thinking skills people say they want to employ right now, they’d have zero, zero surprise that what’s happening in 2018 is happening in 2018. They either didn’t pay attention or conveniently turned it off since the 60s because there’s no freaking way you can be surprised with the stories where we have undeniable proof it happened otherwise.

This guy could be rotting in prison right now for murder or theft or any other crime, and it would change absolutely nothing about what he experienced in high school. A huge chunk of that population is rotting in prison, but that doesn’t mean everything they did for the entirety of their life should be dismissed.


#1517

I am only talking about the one specific story involving the search over a school calculator. You have compared not believing in that to not believing in the injustice of innocent people being shot. It is possible to not believe the one and to fully understand the injustice of the other.


#1518

I’m talking about not believing one because there is another story, completely unrelated, in college.

The fact of the matter is if people had listened over the years to the real life problems individuals faced when these stifling institutions crushed the living soul out of entire neighborhoods and groups of people, we wouldn’t have the problem we have today.

Every single person who dismissed these problems before, decided it couldn’t possibly be happening, that these individuals and these groups of people are no good would claim they were using some xyz intelligent based skill in doing so and didn’t intend lasting harm.

So you tell me, is your approach more of the same, because that’s what it sounds like and that is unacceptable. That’s what brought us here.

The next step to find out what happened with the high school incidents is to investigate the high school and police records not run out to see if he did something wrong later.


#1519

I don’t think you really even read what I write.


#1520

My post, which you responded to, not only references but quotes the other story, and that entire post is trying to link the two together. Your complaint makes it sounds like I was responding to you but it’s literally the other way around.

And just because I don’t focus on what you want me to focus on does not mean I did not read your post. It’s a ridiculous accusation.


#1521

Except people are saying 80% of the story are true. I think we all believe he was persecuted in school. I think we all agree with you that putting police in schools is a problem, because so many police are racist, and so much of the system supporting them is racist.

We just don’t find this guy personally credible, and think it likely he’s omitting details and exaggerating to boost his own profile.