The decline to moral bankruptcy of the GOP


#5686

That doesn’t make it better?

Again, I will have to say that I don’t agree that GWB was worse than Trump, but we won’t know until 2020 (or 2024… or perp walk day) how to characterize what has happened so far. We are currently experiencing it, and it feels bad right now. So it seems really bad.

But I just don’t see a permanent shift in what the entire GOP has been doing since 2008. It isn’t like Trump needed to do much to get Mitch McConnell fired up to take away healthcare from sick people. If anything, he has stood in the way of progress there.

Again, this is in now way a defense of Trump or the horrible stuff he has said. But there haven’t been any permanent changes to our democracy. I dare say Trump is just continuing the trend that Newt Gingrich started in the 90’s.

I mean god rest 41’s soul, but he was the last decent republican president I think we will see under the current GOP.

Just because GWB followed the rules and had the decency to lie to our faces using faulty intelligence to back it up, and got congress to fall in line doesn’t make it any better.

Would you rather be trapped in a house with a Hitman with a gun or a Florida-man on bathsalts with a gun. Both equally terrifying prospects, but at least Florida-man has a decent chance of offing himself first.


#5687

Well you must be awfully young. I’m really struggling to find anything that Bush that was much worse than other recent Presidents. In the evil department probably the worse thing Bush did was allow waterboarding.

But waterboarding and other “enhanced interrogation techniques” was carried out almost exclusively on people who did bad things to Americans. It is no different than the cop/spy/superhero/soldier who beats the crap out of the criminal/bad guy/Nazi in order to get information to save the girl/squad/city/planet in the movies/TV, generally to the applause of the audience. I don’t know how common it still is in real life but I’m sure it happens daily and did happen as matter of course for most of America’s existence. Obama is probably the first President where didn’t happen as semi-official policy.

Let’s contrast that with Trump. His family separation policy inflicts pain on innocent families. In the case of those who apply for asylum properly they have broken no laws. Torture is inflicted in order to extract information. Inflicting pain is the purpose family separation. It is to discourage migration to the country. Torture is a misguide but understandable policy, that is commonly practiced throughout the world and history. Family separation is just plan evil, is something dreamed up by sadist.


#5688

I think the distinction is between doing bad things within a (mostly) good system, and dismantling said good system.

Trump is a clear and present danger to American democracy, which I hold more precious than I ever realized until 2016. I don’t think the same can be said about GWB, or LBJ for that matter, despite their incredibly destructive policies.

And again, the truly terrifying thing is not that Trump doesn’t give a shit about our democracy, because why would he?, but that tens of millions of Americans (who with straight faces call themselves ‘patriotic’!) are totally okay with that.


#5689

Thank you.


#5690

looks at my post

looks at Slainte’s

What he said too.


#5691

Yes, Slainte conveyed my thoughts.

I think a big part of the argument was thinking that it was designed as an excuse for the GOP, when in reality is was just “Holy shit, this guy is the worst ever.”


#5692

Fully agree. Well said.


#5693

I am with Slainthe on this one.

I mean, sure, maybe GW did a pretty bad job, but what is wrong with you people?! Trump has trampled over all norms and decencies.


#5694

So I have said, for the most part, Trump is worse, but the fact that he can and had the ability to do these things are on the shoulders of past leadership. He did not give himself the ability to do these things. It’s been a systematic if subtle dismantling that brought us to this point. Hes standing on the shoulders of past efforts by the GOP to do what he is doing and I guess I feel not acknowledging that is giving a pass the others don’t deserve and it also glosses over the ability to analyze the how did we get here approach.

He’s the end of a long road, and while some people might claim they didn’t end to travel that road or didn’t want it to get there evidence shows the GOP is exploiting the hell out of it so those claims mean nothing.


#5695

Which is why I mentioned the concept of Net Present Value. Meaning that there is a portion of future results that is attributable to today, however the percentage ‘discount’ on future effects means that, over time, the direct responsibility is diminished. As you move forward in time, the percentage attributable increases because it is more directly linkable.

In this case there is absolutely a percentage of Trump that can be laid at Nixon, and an even greater share heaped at Gingrich. Because Nixon set the stage in certain ways, but the outcome was not certain. But each step, each continuation, adds up.

Which is to say that Roger Ailes, Rush Limbaugh, and Bill O’Reilley have a greater share of responsibilty than Newt Gingrich, who has a greater share than George W Bush, who has more responsibility than his dad, etc. etc. etc. until you get to Eisenhower who I’d hold largely blameless.

You don’t get here without Goldwater and Nixon, but Goldwater and Nixon don’t get you here on their own.


#5696

That’s tribalism. They think of it like football, they go with their team.

Look at when a star player does something horrific. Rapes someone or beats his girlfriends. These people don’t give a fuck that it happened. They care that it hurts their team on the field. That’s it. Nothing else matters. It’s the same in politics. Most of them aren’t conservative. They care about one or two “conservative” issues at best and are often pinko commies for the rest of it. But they vote with the team, because that’s all they know.


#5697

If you mean the racism and xenophobia, I’ll agree that’s been a part of the Republican party for a long time, and most Republican politician turned a blind eye, and some actively courted.

But the denigration of intelligence agencies, and law enforcement, the love affair with Putin, the lack of civility, the ignoring of customs and traditions and law, no this a Trump phenom. Judge Roy Moore is about an awful a guy as had been associated with the GOP for many years, right up there with David Duke. Yes he won the parties nomination, but he managed to lose the Senate race in Alabama of all places.

The thing that makes Trump so scary and uniquely bad, is yes some truly awful Republican have risen to national prominence, and then they get rebuffed by the much of GOP establishment, and ultimately get rejected by the voters. The bastard Trump actually won.


#5698

You make it sound like he lost by a landslide… which didn’t really happen. Someone had a graph around here and it was not exactly a shining moment for the majority of white guys who still voted for him, white women too. Someone like that, someone who refuses to even admit defeat in addition to all the actual problems the guy openly exhibited, still “won” with them.

The GOP cultivated this moment, but they thought they’d control the guy they finally gave the mantle too… they barely control him, but they don’t get a pass because what they intended to give away was given to someone they didn’t mean to have it.


#5699

There is a reason that a lot of ex-Republicans say the party needs to be destroyed completely and utterly.

Because it does.

Some of us just realized it earlier than others.


#5700

More fun in Michigan now - will every state in which the GOP is losing power continue the trend?


#5701

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#5702

I was just sent an article today!

It’s basically the equivalent of moving the goalposts.

BUT you can’t just hand wave this away. I’m going to have read a 1600 page document to be able to respond - while the sender need only wait for the next validating article.


#5703

Womp womp


#5704

No room for bipartisan legislation in McConnell’s Senate.


#5705

That made me laugh, and now I’m sad about laughing.