Why does there have to be a mutual understanding? The dating world can be a shitty and confusing place. People get taken advantage of, feelings get hurt, expectations get out of wack. It’s the way it is, and probably that much more so if you’re chasing celebrities. These people barely know each other. He wasn’t being abusive or cruel to her. He wanted something from her and she wanted something from him. You’re not obligated to put all your cards on the table the first time you hang out with somebody, though when you invite them back to your place after dinner it’s pretty clear what you’re asking for. He wasn’t stringing her along or being emotionally abusive. He was looking to hookup. She didn’t have the willpower to refuse him. It sucks that she feels bad about it, but is the right response is to go public and attempt to ruin somebody’s career over it?
She thinks otherwise. You realize that right? She believes she was sexualyl assaulted. He says consent. She said no it wasn’t. Now we’re all reading in between the lines as to what happened. There was clearly a problem with communication between these two.
And why does their have to be mutual understanding? Because sex is supposed to be consensual, for both parties.
I was responding specifically to this:
if his career is banking on him being a nice guy, he should probably actually be a nice guy.
He plays a nice guy on TV. I don’t think the career consequences of whatever he did should be any different than if he played a villain on TV, is all I am saying.
It’s an unfortunate aspect of celebrity culture that actors are expected to be like the personas they’re paid to project, but it’s nothing new – it goes back at least to the silent-movie days.
Yeah but… She’s full of shit.
This isn’t some kind of thing where we all get to create our own realities. It’s not a purely subjective thing.
According to her own recollection of events, she was not assaulted.
That comment was more basic than that. I think it’s fairly easy to list off a number of celebrities where if someone said they went out with them and they only wound up with a one night stand and all he or she wanted was sex… most the rest of us in the world would say… duh. I don’t think he was on that list.
Not much reading between the lines. Her details were very explicit, and even from her POV it would be a stretch to say anything he did was sexual assault.
She said she said no.
In the Uber home from Ansari’s apartment, Grace texted a friend: “I hate men.” She continued: “I had to say no a lot. He wanted sex. He wanted to get me drunk and then fuck me.” She texted another friend after she got back to her apartment, “I’m taking a bath I’m really upset I feel weird.”
You don’t believe her, Timex. I get it. Delirium, you don’t either.
I believe both of them. They should have stopped. She should have left, and when she expressed hesitation, he should have stopped. They were both at fault here. In her mind, she was sexually assaulted. That’s a fact. She also goes on to talk about his general behavior, his demeanor, being a creep.
Look, I am not saying this guy’s career has to end, that this is some sort of clear cut case, but you can’t believe her story and then say she’s full of shit because you don’t like how she interpreted it. These were two adults. They BOTH should have seen signs here and ended it earlier.
I get the instinct to try and stick up for victims of sexual assault, but this was not assault, and she is not a victim. She is trying to jump on a bandwagon for recognition and fame. It’s not like she is warning other women about a predator. She’s badmouthing a date she didn’t like, and shaming a public figure.
Perhaps we can save our outrage for some actual victims instead of lumping this vindictive, misguided girl in with them.
No she’s not. She didn’t even give her real name.
I meant the author of the Babe blog post. She is certainly trying to benefit. And reveal herself as a hack.
I hope someone makes up a rumor that this guy is a rapist since he’s totally cool with that and wouldn’t mind at all.
True, I don’t think she said ‘no’. I think she invented a lot of meaningless ‘non-verbal’ cues, as if that is a clear sign you’re not interested.
This is the first time she verbally makes any mention she doesn’t want to continue, and it’s not even a ‘no’. This is after they’ve been making out the whole time she was there and performed oral sex on each other.
The very next paragraph…
He simply motioned for her to go down on him and she did without complaint. That’s sexual assault?
Yeah, and he didn’t force her to do anything. At all. He had no power over her either, so there wasn’t even the threat of force.
And as soon as she decided she wanted to leave, he called her a cab.
What EXACTLY did he do wrong? Try to have sex with her? That’s not wrong. That’s a totally normal, legitimate thing. And if she wasn’t into it, he didn’t force the issue.
Like, guess what… If you take off all your clothes, I’m gonna think I got a chance to score. And if you continue to hang around with no clothes on, I’m gonna keep thinking I got that chance until you explicitly say otherwise, because why wouldn’t I? And when she finally explicitly said that? He ended his advances.
He did nothing wrong. Maybe the night didn’t go as she had hoped (although honestly, it’s unclear what she even wanted to happen) but every bad date isn’t sexual assault.
I totally believe her.
But what she described is not assault. It’s not even close. And it trivializes actual sexual assault to stretch it to cover something like this.
Just FYI, the second article interlays the events, but the order is this:
At last, she uttered the word “no” for the first time during their encounter, to Mr. Ansari’s suggestion that they have sex in front of a mirror. He said: “‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’
Then that article makes it seem like she left. But this was after:
While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants.
So this idea that a man has to have power over her, like literal power is not a thing, for it to be sexual assault. And he’s a celebrity, and she’s not. That automatically create a power issue anyway. Also, until MeToo, it was almost impossible for a woman in most industries to one, report assault and be believed, and two even prevail in some sort of court situation; almost every case would see her dragged through the media as some sort of whore… instantly. So yeah, he had power over her but even she doesn’t seem to suggest he was trying to use it. But let’s be clear, MeToo is largely about the lack of voice, lack of power to even say something. She was a photographer at the Emmy’s when they met right; they’re in the same industry.
What did he do wrong? When a woman expresses doubts, multiple times, is there some sort of rulebook out there that says double down and turn a no into yes? That’s just Hollywood bullshit pushed by the very people most entwined in the #MeToo movement right now. Those stories and ideas were actually backed and pushed by rapists, and we know it.
Why would anyone think you should continue with someone who is clearly not sure about having sex with you?
I mean is this how sex goes for everyone today? You guys just sit around pressuring your significant others or casual encounters, like you have to keep pushing? I just can’t believe this is what everyone thinks is normal today.
Is this our normal? This is how we tell young men to behave, to just copy this example?
But why can’t we set our expectations higher? Why does it have to be a shitty and confusing place?
Why should we think that pressuring someone into having sex by being persistent, by nagging, is reasonable behaviour?
FWIW I think it’s worth noting a disconnect in two different conversations taking place on this topic.
The bulk of conversation I’m seeing from women isn’t so much directed at Aziz as it as people saying, “I can super relate to this. I’ve been in that exact situation and it sucks. I want to talk about why this sucks so bad.”
But I would characterize the bulk of the counter-reactions as things like, “So is this the same as Weinstein? Are you claiming this meets the legal definition of rape in a court room? Are you boycotting Netflix?” Etc.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Sorry, but your inner uncertain angsty dialog is not admissible in court.
There’s obviously not one version of normal. Everybody’s different. And ‘playing hard to get’ is a pretty common part of the whole seduction dance.
Aziz didn’t need to pressure her so much. That’s the lesson I’m sure he took from it which hopefully men can learn from.
Meanwhile, women like Grace can use fewer non-verbal cues and more verbal cues. Such as, “I wanted red wine. Good night.”