Again, this is a complex issue.
Define sexual assault?
Define coercion?
Define coming forward?
Sexual assault seems pretty well defined, as does coercion.
Coming forward: going on the record, which may or may not include involving the police.
If a 90 year old man in a wheelchair patted me on the ass, should I go to the police?
I don’t think so, no. I mean, I escaped relatively unscathed and he’s a senile old man.
I’d probably have a bit of a laugh about it with my friends.
If I was gay and 20 years ago I went to a party where a drunk actor climbed on top of me and then got off when I said I was uncomfortable. Should I go to the police? Probably not, no.
Would I be morally justified to pillory him in the tabloid press?
If some weird comedian whipped his junk out and asked me to watch him masturbate.
Maybe I’d go to the police in that scenario. If he’s whipping his junk out then it’s pretty disturbing behavior.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck record. This stuff isn’t black and white.
If a 90 year old man patted you on the ass, should a woman who was raped by a hollywood producer stay silent?
Stay silent?
Absolutely not, she should report the incident to the police (of course).
Should she report the incident to the press?
Well, I think that’s where the line starts to get blurred. The press doesn’t perform a criminal investigation with due process. The accuser is tried by the court of public opinion. Regardless of the severity or truthfulness of the incident the accuser faces consequences in terms of loss of reputation, loss of employment etc
If the intent is to attempt to enact a legal punishment on the accused, then due process is pretty important.
If the intent is to warn everyone everywhere of a pattern of bad behaviour, then due process is not so important.
You don’t know anything about the world of employment if you think you can report a sexual assault or harassment of a manager or a boss to HR. HR does not work for employees. They exist to make the top branch happy.
I think abandoning due process can be very dangerous. Perhaps we should warn everyone about witches.
Public Service Announcement: You can test them by drowning .
Abandoning it for legal proceedings is dangerous.
Due process is not a thing if you just need to know if someone is a jerk or not. You can use your own judgement for that.
I don’t know how it works in the USA but reporting sexual harassment to HR is the appropriate step in my country and many others as they are responsible for staff welfare.
HR works for the company and their job is to protect said company.
You don’t actually have to be in the USA to know that HR is not working in this case. If you actually read some of the larger stories, you will see that some of these ladies went to HR, and received not only no help but were punished as a result or forced to admit fault so they can never sue the company and of course risk being blacklisted. You are reading about the cases involved in the movement you’re complaining about… right?
I’ve tried to avoid using specific cases in my posts. There are other avenues open if HR fails. Police for example if it’s criminal.
No… You’ve tried to avoid it because your false claims and unfair downfalls isn’t really happening. You don’t have specific cases in any notable volume to support your unfounded fears. And even if you didn’t want to quote a specific case, you’re capable of reading and should at least know HR’s role in the existing, real life cases before you throw it out as an option that is clearly not available to anyone who actually did something other than fantasize about all the unrealistic horrors women with voices might cause some despicable men.
Aka, that excuse is ridiculous.
I also feared that it #metoo would become a witchhunt, but almost all of the cases we have seen have been pretty egregious. As Nesrie said as long as guys are behaving reasonably there isn’t a problem.
It seems to me the rule is pretty simple. Unless you have been passionately kissing a co-worker and she is very willing participant for quite some time, you have no business touching a co-workers butt, breast, genitals, nor do you have any business showing them your dick, or sending them a dick pict. This rule goes double for women who aren’t co-workers but you’ve just recently met on the job.
Yep. As someone who has passionately kissed a co-worker who was willing, it’s a pretty easy distinction and visible line. I was a horny 20-something working with some really attractive women and it wasn’t exactly a minefield or anything. We had one creepy dude who was low-level that tried something adjacent to that kind of shit and was gone within about half an hour. No one in the building was likely over 30 and there were some horny fuckers in the bunch, but it wasn’t like consent or the line was remotely blurry for any of us.
I think eventually some scumbag group will try to use it against their enemies. I mean… Vertias has already tried in a way, but the WaPo basically kicked them in the balls and laughed at them for even trying.
This story reminds me of this
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966?snl=1
I was an 18 year old at my first office Christmas party. Open bar. A bunch of us were tanked. I grabbed the butt of a girl passing my table. She hauled off and smacked me hard. I immediately apologized and begged her not to tell anyone. First and last time I ever did that.
Garrison Keillor still seems to me an outlier. Either there’s something else going on and/or his account of what happened is highly fictionalized, or he’s being railroaded.
Statements like this:
“We understand that some listeners are upset and know that the limited information we’ve made available at this time may not seem to justify such a consequential decision,” MPR spokeswoman Angie Andresen said in a statement to the Associated Press on Thursday. “We want to assure that this decision honors the highest standards they’ve come to expect from us.”
Makes me think they’re holding information back for a reason. They’re basically acknowledging that his case seems mild compared to others but they’re still moving forward. The only narrative we have is his at this point, and last I heard, this guy is a storyteller, by trade. I don’t think they would fire him and then try and move forward like he didn’t exist without… more.