The Fall of Harvey Weinstein


#1578

Certainly. And yet consent is still super important, a lesson seemingly not learned by many people.

Should those who have suffered sexual assault or been coerced into sexual situations come forward, or not?


#1579

I thought this article about false accusations of rape was interesting. The writer says that accusations are almost always pushed forward when the accuser is 1) trying to dodge serious trouble with parents like “I stayed out too late and broke curfew” 2) they have a record of making other outlandish claims 3) they are trying to defraud some institution or somebody, and 4) revenge… but usually for weird stuff like “the drugs he sold me sucked” — almost never revenge for getting dumped or getting back at former lovers.

When a woman says she’s been brutally raped by seven men at a public party on a bed of broken glass, as the UVA accuser did, and when that woman has a history of strange lies, as the UVA accuser also did, there’s nothing wrong with being skeptical. But if a woman without any history of dramatic falsehoods says she went home with a man and, after they’d kissed a while consensually, he held her down and forced her into sex—in the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, you can just assume it’s true. This is not because of any political dictum like “Believe women.” It’s because this story looks exactly like tens of thousands of date rapes that happen every year, and nothing at all like a false rape accusation.


#1580

Again, this is a complex issue.

Define sexual assault?

  • Rape
  • Someone climbed on top of me then got up again when I said no
  • Someone patted me on the ass

Define coercion?

  • The accused is in a position of power
  • The accused is 90 years old, in a wheelchair and in a position of power
  • The accused is a famous actor/actress and so I felt compelled to go along

Define coming forward?

  • Reporting the incident to the police
  • Reporting the incident to someone in authority (HR, boss etc)
  • Telling the tabloid press

#1581

Sexual assault seems pretty well defined, as does coercion.

Coming forward: going on the record, which may or may not include involving the police.


#1582

If a 90 year old man in a wheelchair patted me on the ass, should I go to the police?
I don’t think so, no. I mean, I escaped relatively unscathed and he’s a senile old man.
I’d probably have a bit of a laugh about it with my friends.

If I was gay and 20 years ago I went to a party where a drunk actor climbed on top of me and then got off when I said I was uncomfortable. Should I go to the police? Probably not, no.
Would I be morally justified to pillory him in the tabloid press?

If some weird comedian whipped his junk out and asked me to watch him masturbate.
Maybe I’d go to the police in that scenario. If he’s whipping his junk out then it’s pretty disturbing behavior.

At the risk of sounding like a stuck record. This stuff isn’t black and white.


#1583

If a 90 year old man patted you on the ass, should a woman who was raped by a hollywood producer stay silent?


#1584

Stay silent?
Absolutely not, she should report the incident to the police (of course).

Should she report the incident to the press?
Well, I think that’s where the line starts to get blurred. The press doesn’t perform a criminal investigation with due process. The accuser is tried by the court of public opinion. Regardless of the severity or truthfulness of the incident the accuser faces consequences in terms of loss of reputation, loss of employment etc


#1585

If the intent is to attempt to enact a legal punishment on the accused, then due process is pretty important.

If the intent is to warn everyone everywhere of a pattern of bad behaviour, then due process is not so important.


#1586

You don’t know anything about the world of employment if you think you can report a sexual assault or harassment of a manager or a boss to HR. HR does not work for employees. They exist to make the top branch happy.


#1587

I think abandoning due process can be very dangerous. Perhaps we should warn everyone about witches.
Public Service Announcement: You can test them by drowning .


#1588

Abandoning it for legal proceedings is dangerous.

Due process is not a thing if you just need to know if someone is a jerk or not. You can use your own judgement for that.


#1589

I don’t know how it works in the USA but reporting sexual harassment to HR is the appropriate step in my country and many others as they are responsible for staff welfare.


#1590

HR works for the company and their job is to protect said company.


#1591

You don’t actually have to be in the USA to know that HR is not working in this case. If you actually read some of the larger stories, you will see that some of these ladies went to HR, and received not only no help but were punished as a result or forced to admit fault so they can never sue the company and of course risk being blacklisted. You are reading about the cases involved in the movement you’re complaining about… right?


#1592

I’ve tried to avoid using specific cases in my posts. There are other avenues open if HR fails. Police for example if it’s criminal.


#1593

No… You’ve tried to avoid it because your false claims and unfair downfalls isn’t really happening. You don’t have specific cases in any notable volume to support your unfounded fears. And even if you didn’t want to quote a specific case, you’re capable of reading and should at least know HR’s role in the existing, real life cases before you throw it out as an option that is clearly not available to anyone who actually did something other than fantasize about all the unrealistic horrors women with voices might cause some despicable men.

Aka, that excuse is ridiculous.


#1594

I also feared that it #metoo would become a witchhunt, but almost all of the cases we have seen have been pretty egregious. As Nesrie said as long as guys are behaving reasonably there isn’t a problem.

It seems to me the rule is pretty simple. Unless you have been passionately kissing a co-worker and she is very willing participant for quite some time, you have no business touching a co-workers butt, breast, genitals, nor do you have any business showing them your dick, or sending them a dick pict. This rule goes double for women who aren’t co-workers but you’ve just recently met on the job.


#1595

Yep. As someone who has passionately kissed a co-worker who was willing, it’s a pretty easy distinction and visible line. I was a horny 20-something working with some really attractive women and it wasn’t exactly a minefield or anything. We had one creepy dude who was low-level that tried something adjacent to that kind of shit and was gone within about half an hour. No one in the building was likely over 30 and there were some horny fuckers in the bunch, but it wasn’t like consent or the line was remotely blurry for any of us.

I think eventually some scumbag group will try to use it against their enemies. I mean… Vertias has already tried in a way, but the WaPo basically kicked them in the balls and laughed at them for even trying.


#1596

This story reminds me of this
http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/sexual-harassment/2751966?snl=1


#1597

I was an 18 year old at my first office Christmas party. Open bar. A bunch of us were tanked. I grabbed the butt of a girl passing my table. She hauled off and smacked me hard. I immediately apologized and begged her not to tell anyone. First and last time I ever did that.